Conservation vs restoration defined by other genres of collectibles
 

I know...beating a dead horse these past few days. But I think it’s good we talk amongst our community about these definitions. But can we do it constructively?

The way I see it our hobby is in a vulnerable spot, growing pains of sorts, in a phase where these restored cards are going undetected by TPG’s and being sold to the community.

I’m a longtime comic book collector as well. I see similar parallels happening here that something the comic book industry went through years ago. Now with CGC recognizing conservation and restoration it’s openly discussed with clear definitions.

If TPG’s like SGC and PSA someday decide to do what CGC did then we’ll all look back at this time as a game changer in regards to this subject.

What’s happening here is that there are now attempts to “evolve” the sports card hobby to similar collectible genres. Could this mean conservation and restoration is legitimately recognized by the TPG. Grading such cards under a different label?

I remembered seeing this video and think it would be helpful to those who want to actually invest some time into the subject of conservation and restoration in collectibles.
Guests appear to be from CGC and much more knowledgeable on the subject than anyone who has publicly spoken about this on behalf of the sports card hobby.
It’s a long interview but touched on very specific points.

For those who have been most vocal about this topic I’ll tap you on the shoulder and ask that you watch this interview.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

I know the ethical question these days is about knowingly selling altered cards. But what happens if SGC or PSA follows every other collectibles industry who has clearly defined restoration? Grades under a “restored” flip..Will that satisfy the collectors here and put the subject to rest?

While I am sure the video is interesting and I will get to it later I don’t have to watch it to agree with what you said here. I would be satisfied if the grading companies were to evolve, recognize and label cards as for what they are.

I would presume an item designated Restored will always sell for considerably less than one deemed original, so there would be the same incentive to alter cards as before, no? Don't we already have something close anyhow with AUTH?

In the comic book world it’s fairly standard that restored label books sell for about 25%-50% of similar unrestored examples. It it varies depending on the rarity of the book.

I feel like the comic industry is a step ahead of cards. Really love the video I referenced as its very clear that a TPG could single handily change the problems we see today. We could learn a lot by opening up these doors.

Right so as I said there would still be a huge incentive to alter cards to get them past the TPGs just as there is today, what am I missing? No skilled card doctor is going to say oh please designate my card restored so it can be worth 25-50 percent.

Additionally such a large percentage of known cards especially vintage are already in slabs...at a great cost. Good luck getting people to crack them all out at additional costs. I do not see that ever happening.

Absolutely no incentive to try and get alterations “past” the TPG. As they sell for less.

The big question here is if TPG’s in the card industry are willing to change their business structure to do what CGC does and recognize conservation, restoration. I know that’s a huge change and likely not good for the bottom line. But as it stands there is incentive and a proven “loophole” of sorts because there is no consistent standard for recognizing alterations.

I know Brent touches on how we have not “matured” in this hobby. I kind of agree we aren’t there yet. Even comics are ahead of the “game”.

I don't follow your logic at all. They sell for less only if they're caught. Your stated premise is that the problem we have now is TPGs aren't detecting alteration. So why wouldn't that continue if the result of getting them past TPGs is that they're worth more?

Nothing, absolutely nothing. Paid damage control maybe, I have no idea. Anybody else have a hobby that has nothing to do with baseball cards that we can use their standards to make criminal activity in our hobby seem OK?

Brent isn't trying to mature the hobby he is trying to cover his ass IMHO.

Based on how this conversation is going so far it puts us back on the question. What’s undetectable by TPG’s slide by as unaltered. That’s the reality we card collectors have to live with. Until TPG’s figure out a solution.

Watch the video and they speak on this subject of “tolerances” when it comes to things like cleaning or pressing.

Somehow CGC appears to have it figured out and is obviously more stringent on books than PSA is on cards.

Let me understand this. Suppose I am a highly skilled card doctor making gobs of money getting many of my hatchet jobs past TPGs. Now, a market develops for restored cards (there sort of is one already, the AUTH, but never mind that). Restored cards sell for 50-75 percent less. I am going to stop being a card doctor and become a card restorer? Why?

Again, it's late, maybe I am missing it.

Right. Any system at all only works if the TPGs can tell the difference.

To rely on internet sources to flag altered cards is not good for our hobby. It causes drama, unnecessary bad publicity, conspiracy theories etc etc. It needs to be done at a collective industry level. My only solution is getting TPG’s to step up their game. Follow what CGC does.

I wish they would do that. But the reality is that they are performing suboptimally which means people take it into their own hands, particularly with so much accessible information, with all that entails.

Watch the video if you can spare the time. It’ll make you appreciate the openness of CGC on this subject and what they are doing about it. It certainly makes it less taboo. To those who think the comic hobby is irrelevant to cards are turning a blind eye. It’s all relevant because it’s all driven by the almighty dollar.

This. Years ago, Jim Crandall led the charge against altered cards. As long as they weren't his graded cards. I ate his ass out back then, but I get it. Can't blame him. It would not make much sense IMO to pay a ton for a card and then take the potentially huge financial hickey later.

What I can say is that when someone breaks a card out and resubmits it raw, whether a card doctor or a speculator, that's an entirely different story. They chose to take that risk and the card should then be graded appropriately. I know, that assumes that the TPG has the capacity to do that, which I have no confidence at all can occur. But isn't that what a TPG is supposed to do and what they represent they can do? So where do we go from here?

Watch the video I referenced. It’ll open your eyes to what is possible here.
Comic books are so much more detailed with multiple pages to analyze. You are telling me it’s impossible for TPG’s to assess a single card properly?

If CGC can do it. If PCGS can do it. It’s the next stage. Time to step it up.

Hopefully the TPGs can find some way to step up their game, and hopefully law enforcement can make examples of a few people that will at least incrementally deter bad conduct.

TPGs could do it to some extent but not for the fees and turnaround times people demand and bitch about already, IMO.

Ya...6 minutes was plenty! The problem with this video and comparing the baseball card hobby to comics becomes clear in the first five minutes. They stated very early on that the comic book hobby was not mature enough such that subtle differences in grades affected value...When this guy started restoring comic books and merged his company with the grading company. So restoration was being done very early on in the continuum of grading within the comic book Hobby.

This scenario is quite the opposite of what is going on in the baseball card hobby these days.

Another apples to oranges bullshit analogy to justify devious behavior on the part of your friends...in my humble opinion.

I feel it's very NECESSARY bad publicity.

My problem in general with your scenario of evolution is that it's evolving only after people got caught gaming the system. In other words it's not a "natural" evolution of standards but rather backing and filling to account for deeds already accomplished. You can't do something and then when called out claim you were just trying to evolve the hobby. Forget the hubris for a minute. If you honestly thought that you were the one to lead the hobby to a new paradigm you'd announce it BEFORE you ever started profiting from it.

As I understand it, originality has always been crucial for baseball cards because with so many examples of most cards in existence, condition is the real differentiator. And that would not work if improving condition was permissible. Now sure they may be a niche market for people who just want a great looking card regardless of originality, but I don't think that's going to go mainstream.

Not bullshit analogy Pete. How did the card industry function before TPG’s. When everything was raw? Deals were made on handshakes and dollars with no guarantees. How in the world guys adopted the idea of a Third Party Grader telling them what condition their cards are baffles me? I still run into old school card guys who talk negatively towards TPG’s. Reality is that the card hobby is evolving and incidents like the ones being brought to light are an indication that we need some change.

To undo what’s been done is possible. There is always a clear path forward. What CGC did is possible with card TPG’s. Resist the idea all you want but you are only hurting yourself and this hobby by being stubborn to change. To throw up your hands and say nothing can be done other than to take matters into our own hands is irresponsible and a free pass to the guys making money off the idea of being a TPG or card doctor for that matter.

I think you had two things happening more or less at the same time, card doctoring was rampant so there was a market for what people believed was good third party authentication, and more and more business was done not in person. It's the internet that ultimately made TPGs I think even if PSA started a little before.

The turnaround times that people demand and bitch about are those which the TPGs advertise as being what is going to occur. Kind of hard for me to criticize people for bitching about the TPGs not even coming close to meeting their own stated criteria when they don't.

In terms of price, that's probably somewhat more fair. But again, they set their pricing criteria. I can't increase my fee because the case was lots harder than I originally thought it would be when my client signed my contract. Why can a TPG? I have a big level of discomfort with a higher cost "we'll probably have a higher chance to get it right if we have more time" level of grading given that "getting it right" has been the stated promise since TPG began. But i'm sure not seeing it right now, at least not on the examples shown on BO and elsewhere. If they need more time, say that. Don't make fraudulent promises that you know can't be fulfilled.

You don't think people would bitch if TPGs formally changed their stated turnaround times and raised their fees? Dream on, in the words of Steven Tyler. People want it both ways. They want crime lab like scrutiny at minimal cost and quickly.

Are they bitching now? Seems like they are. About both. At least if they changed their turnaround times and actually got it right, there would be less concern about one of the issues.

I think they would have a riot if they formally changed their turnaround times. People these days are incredibly impatient, they bitch if an AH hasn't sent their cards within two days.

Kenny brings up a good point that has never come up in any of the comments.
How does PSA charge $1k or more on certain service levels and not catch a conservation job. Is there a certain level of tolerance when it comes to conservation measures? TPG’s could benefit from updating their standards at a minimum. To be fair more attention to detail is welcome at the $1k service level. Please and thank you.

My ex brother-in-law was a vintage big movie memorabilia collector and he explained how it works with movie posters. If you restore (or conserve) a Vg vintage movie poster to NrmMt, it will be worth more than Vg but less than NrmMt. And it was the hobby requirement that any restoration be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing restoration or conservation would be considered fraud, because it affected the valued

In that area, taste and sentiment would vary between collectors, but restoration and conservation wasn't frowned upon, and often was seen as positive for the preservation of the delicate posters. However, the pricing and requirement for disclosure was as was stated in paragraph #1. In all areas of collecting, whether it is common and accepted (paintings, movie posters) or not (American Indian artifacts), conservation and restoration affects market value, and, thus, has to be disclosed.

Also, conservation (which could include restoration) was a serious, scientific treatment, including of the paper, to stabilize it and preserve it for posterity. It was not "spooning out wrinkles."

To repeat: SPOONING OUT WRINKLES AND REMOVING WAX STAINS IS NOT CONSERVATION. No one in the other hobbies, the art or artifacts world, defines conservation as PWCC does. And, even if they did, the 'conservation' would still have to be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing it would be considered fraud. It does not matter what word you call it, you're still altering ('doing work on' if you prefer) the item, and that has to be disclosed. If Brent insists on calling it 'conservation,' fine. But that does not change the fact that it has to be disclosed, and, because knowledge that the card has been 'conserved' would lower the market value, it is fraud.

That's a 10K - 25K card. That isn't where we're seeing the issues for the most part, is it?
Besides these guys doubtless try to sneak stuff through at lower tiers.

I don’t want this link reference to get lost in the shuffle.

It’s worth watching and noting when we hold TPG’s to the highest standards.
CGC absolutely got it right by taking a stance on this topic.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

So its better to just ignore the turnaround times that they promised to meet? PSA is admittedly months behind. You don't think people are upset about that? Maybe you and i are seeing different posts, but that certainly isn't my take. And, at the least, increasing the stated turnaround times would have the virtue of being somewhat honest.

Yes, It absolutely is the target audience if I’m reading what’s been outed.

I think if it takes 100 days to get cards back, people are going to be pissed even if PSA told them in advance it would take 100 days. They would be equally pissed at the change in stated time as at the failure to meet a shorter stated time. IMO.

We aren't reading the same threads then. Most of what I'm seeing is in a much lower range.

That's a dodge. If you sign up for 100 days, you can hope it comes earlier and be disappointed if it doesn't, but you have no real reason to be pissed. If you sign up for 30 days and it takes 100, yes, i think its fair to be pissed. That's not even close to the representation which was made.

I think people care how long it takes, not if someone made a false representation. If PSA tomorrow doubled its stated turnaround times, I think people would go nuts. Just an opinion.

And they care how long it takes now. And part of the angst is that the length of time it is taking is substantially longer than people signed up for. That's what I am seeing and that is my opinion.

34:15 of the video CGC grader claims high dollar comics go through as many as 5 to 6 even 7 vintage graders under the review process. That indeed is getting your moneys worth.

Look. Brent wants it both ways: prettier restored cards to give stickers to, and ever increasing card values. You don't get both of those without fraud, because disclosing the alterations leads to lower prices.
We already have AUTH-ALTERED flips to meet your requirements. Having more of them just means the fraudsters will buy more trimmed/restored cards to crack out, rough up, and resubmit as original.
It is up to the grading companies to catch these alterations. But PWCC should drop its defense of their tenets and eliminate them. Only after they've been ratified by the grading companies do they mean anything; but the TPGs would have to admit the King has no clothes first.

Perhaps a good place to start is to stop referring to slabbed cards as "graded" as cards, but instead as "examined" cards (or some other word that gives the same meaning). The point of slabbing should be to convey objective information. In contrast, a numerical grade conveys a subjective conclusion. Who's to say centering should take preference over registration? Or a sharp corner should matter more than photo contrast? Or that a stain on the verso of a blank-backed card should be given comparable weight to a stain on the front of the card? One person's 8 could be another person's 5. Collecting should be about personal enjoyment, which is a subjective concept. To complement this concept the information the flip conveys should be simply to state objective information about what if anything was done to the card, and from that point on leave it to the collector to decide whether to purchase the card and what to pay.

+1.

I remember the first time I saw a number grade for an autograph — it was on a Ty Cobb signed check in a PSA/DNA holder at the White Plains Show maybe 10 years ago. It had an outrageous price tag because it was a PSA 10. To this day, I have never paid for a TPG to “grade the autograph” because all I care about is authentication. I can make my own decisions about whether a signature is beautiful, crisp, and clean, but I like an independent opinion on authenticity.

I also agree with this...OBJECTIVE INFO should be conveyed by an opinion on a card. The whole grading mentality and the registry have helped create the problems we have today.

Above all DISCLOSURE of whats been done to a card is PARAMOUNT.

Also, has SGC been caught up in any of this? Back when I was routinely having cards graded by PSA and SGC - 10+ years ago - it was pretty obvious that PSA often missed trimming that SGC would catch. I know it’s a different group of graders now, as most of that team has either joined REA or PSA, but perhaps their system catches these what-now-seem-to-be-obvious trim jobs?

Or is it that the doctors target the registry community? As long as people still care so much about the difference between a 9.5 and a 10, you’ll just be inviting all sorts of funny business that pisses off somebody’s notion of grading ethics.

I don't think people submit to SGC the high end modern cards where a lot of this is being outed. And I suspect that most card doctors want to get their cards into PSA slabs because for better or worse they sell for more.

A couple of thoughts on this:

1) To me this would embolden many more to trim cards. If there was a Trimmed 8 that sold for 50% of a regular 8 - then the card doctors can be more bold. The risk of trimming a 5 and it possibly being detected and going to an altered holder is a deterrent. It is possible to lose money if the TPG detects the alteration. Now it could be break even if detected and a huge gain if not detected.

2) Comic book grading has never made sense to me. While not a collector - what if my favorite art from the book were on page 5, 9 and 11 of a comic book. I am paying all this money and never even seeing those pages on my book. Are these books scanned and retained somewhere page by page so you can actually see what you are buying? Makes sense that they need to take more time and get it right because unlike with cards you cannot see the majority of it with your own eyes.

To me the TPGs need to find a way to examine the card edges better and finding ways to detect trimming. If that takes hiring more people and giving them more time it is their duty to do so. If some people turn these cards in and they actually honor their guarantee then hopefully they can use those cards to find a way to find and train on what they missed. Unfortunately I do not see this as what will happen.

My prediction is it goes the way of the comic book. Way easier to error on the side of caution when you grade the trimmed card. This way min size cards will get into trimmed holders - they tighten standards on size - change color labels so key cards have to be graded again into the new conserved and “original” holder. Collectors over time have to bite the bullet and pay thousands of dollars to get key cards into “original” holders with cards in the current red holder selling at a discount in the marketplace.

That's an interesting point about comic book grading that I had not thought about. If it's sealed, you can't read it. Seems to defeat the whole point of a comic book, no?

Opaque slabs for trading cards would be the equivalent in our hobby and would allow Registry collectors to focus more clearly on the flip.;)

Therefore if you can't see it, the whole point of a trading card is defeated, no?

This^