UPDATED 5/16: BEWARE PAYPAL CHARGEBACKS! If you sell on eBay, read this...

[mattsey9]

Sorry to hear this. What is the Ebay ID of the buyer so I can block them?

[commishbob]

That's ridiculous. To be out that much without much recourse is a shame. Every time I think 'this might be a good time to sell some stuff on eBay' I read stories like this and wonder if I should even try.

[Throttlesteer]

There are many folks that make their living with Ebay and PayPal. There are also a small percentage of people that consistently find new ways of gaming the system and screwing people over.

Getting this persons EBay ID wouldn't help much. They probably have a bunch of them.

[DeanH3]

That sucks is a complete understatement. I do appreciate you sharing this as I just went and cancelled a fairly expensive eBay listing. I want no part of that mess.

[Lorewalker]

That is one messed up situation. Sorry to hear this. Have a few questions.

Have you reached out to the buyer to get his side of the story? It might provide you with something that you could use against him with paypal and his financial institution.

Many things here do not make sense but has paypal explained to you how they can place your funds on hold for Refund Not Received when there is no record of such a request having been made? It must have been that the buyer contacted his financial institution and opened a dispute. If so he has lied to them because there is no proof that he has attempted to return the merchandise, at least as far as you have seen.

Having paypal, who has no skin in the game, fight on a seller's behalf is a bit scary. They certainly do not sound like they are advocating too hard for you given the proof you have provided them. The financial institution should accept that as this being a clear case of fraud on the buyer's part.

And yeah as a public service to other sellers who are reading this, you might want to let them know who this dbag is.

Good luck,
Chase

[glchen]

I think you need to escalate this and talk to someone else at Paypal. How can you give a refund if you did not even receive your original item back? The buyer needs to prove that they went you the card back with the tracking number and the signature confirmation. Otherwise, it's just mail fraud.

[chalupacollects]

Yes you might want to start a conversation with your local post office about mail fraud and let the buyer know...

Also posting then name here would help other sellers out.. And if your are on BO they have a section dedicated to this stuff...

[D. Bergin]

Yes, post the ID and then send another message to the buyer telling them you are going to open a mail fraud case through the Post Office. That should at least get them thinking on either getting your money, or your card back.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Have a few questions.

Have you reached out to the buyer to get his side of the story?

has paypal explained to you how they can place your funds on hold for Refund Not Received when there is no record of such a request having been made?

It must have been that the buyer contacted his financial institution and opened a dispute. If so he has lied to them because there is no proof that he has attempted to return the merchandise, at least as far as you have seen.

Yes, reached out to buyer via eBay message and the email address I got from Paypal. No reply to either as of right now. I also have a phone number, have not tried that yet.

Paypal was made aware that no request for refund had been made to me either via eBay or Paypal, which their reps have confirmed with me every time we've spoken. eBay rep also has confirmed no request for refund. This is one of my key questions - so if you know that a request for refund was not made, why would you agree to issue the refund? Even more, why would you agree to do that without requiring that return of the item when there is clear evidence that the item was indeed delivered and signed for?

Yes, buyer went through his "financial institution", Paypal has confirmed that is who was requesting return of the funds but they obviously won't tell me which institution that is. Paypal putting the funds on hold during the dispute process is normal, and while irritating it's not a big deal - people should get their opportunities to reply. However, subsequently deciding to remove the funds from me permanently despite the lack of the refund request, as well as in light of all the other information I provided showing delivery, signature, etc., and then not requiring the item to at least be returned is what is utterly confusing.

As if that's not enough, the case is still OPEN within Paypal. That's the only thing that gives me any hope, but then again why would the "financial institution" just back their customer if Paypal already gave them the money back? From their perspective, isn't it really Paypal's problem now? And while Paypal is "fighting for me", they're really just passing the buck to me to try and figure out some other way to collect since they gave the money back already.

[GeoPoto]

I'm not a lawyer, but the blatant injustice contained in PayPal's decision to renege on the receipt of funds notice that they knew you relied on, makes it hard to accept. PayPal abetted the buyer's fraudulent grasping of both the card and the cash. Since PayPal could easily confirm the available facts with eBay, they had no basis for accepting the dishonest claim.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by bounce

Yes, reached out to buyer via eBay message and the email address I got from Paypal. No reply to either as of right now. I also have a phone number, have not tried that yet.

Paypal was made aware that no request for refund had been made to me either via eBay or Paypal, which their reps have confirmed with me every time we've spoken. eBay rep also has confirmed no request for refund. This is one of my key questions - so if you know that a request for refund was not made, why would you agree to issue the refund? Even more, why would you agree to do that without requiring that return of the item when there is clear evidence that the item was indeed delivered and signed for?

Yes, buyer went through his "financial institution", Paypal has confirmed that is who was requesting return of the funds but they obviously won't tell me which institution that is. Paypal putting the funds on hold during the dispute process is normal, and while irritating it's not a big deal - people should get their opportunities to reply. However, subsequently deciding to remove the funds from me permanently despite the lack of the refund request, as well as in light of all the other information I provided showing delivery, signature, etc., and then not requiring the item to at least be returned is what is utterly confusing.

As if that's not enough, the case is still OPEN within Paypal. That's the only thing that gives me any hope, but then again why would the "financial institution" just back their customer if Paypal already gave them the money back? From their perspective, isn't it really Paypal's problem now? And while Paypal is "fighting for me", they're really just passing the buck to me to try and figure out some other way to collect since they gave the money back already.

David,

Once a buyer initiates a charge back with their credit card paypal immediately puts the squeeze on the seller. Paypal used to, and may still, urge buyers to initiate the dispute with them because they know sellers would be hesitant to use paypal knowing they cave at that point. A charge back should be a last resort for a buyer. Clearly your buyer is simply trying to defraud you by bypassing the policies in place that are there to protect buyer and seller. And yeah it is a HUGE loop hole in the protection that paypal offers sellers.

If paypal was really advocating for you all they would have to do is let the bank know that the buyer is in possession of the merchandise and never even asked to return it. It is pretty infuriating. Since it is no longer their money they are protecting I am sure their effort in this, unless you can get a sympathetic ear, is going to be minimal.

Chase

[drcy]

In small claims court, the positive feedback would be enough to win the case.

[CTDean]

David,
Reply sent. Let me know if you have any questions. As I mentioned, while you may want to hold the eBay ID private for awhile, it wouldn't hurt to throw out the City and State. Someone here may live close to the buyer. Check Craigslist in the buyers area for your card too.

[esd10]

If this person does receive the funds back without returning the merchandise I would consider this theft of goods and would file a police report.

[Mark17]

And if I was talking to some supervisor-level person at PayPal I would ask them if this is really a can of worms they wish to open. Because if this scam gains traction and becomes commonplace it could literally sink their company.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by esd10

If this person does receive the funds back without returning the merchandise I would consider this theft of goods and would file a police report.

+1

[bounce]

I'm currently trying to understand from Paypal what their exact process is for evaluating a "refund not received" claim.

Obviously they don't require a request for refund, since they've already agreed with me that one has not been made.

Again, they put the funds on hold initially, which is something I've had happen before - that's not unusual. What I find disturbing and bizarre is their decision to go ahead and take the funds permanently out of my account, after I had provided them all the information above and spoke to them on the phone TWICE. The only other piece was the signature of the buyer, which was sent today after it was already too late. Regardless, according to Paypal that part didn't even matter because no one says I didn't deliver the item.

So again - someone please help me understand what the Paypal process is for determining whether or not a request for refund is valid, when no such request was ever made, but I still provided evidence indicating that not only was the item delivered, the buyer was also satisfied with it at least enough to leave me positive feedback.

Believe me, I'm going to continue pressing this with Paypal because they screwed up and took money out of my account when there was no valid reason to do so, particularly considering that I was actively engaged and replying to the claim request.

[Huck]

Sorry, to hear that you might be out close to $1,500. I have heard similar stories which is one reason (fees being another), I have been reluctant to start selling on ebay. Granted it is a pain, but wouldn't having two accounts from two separate institutions work? Ebay buyers pay into account A. Once paid funds arrive to Account A the funds are wired to Account B. Paypal can't take $$ that is not there.