Are the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards really T206's ? ....I think so....What say you ?

[Pat R]

Jereme, if the American Beauty checklists didn't match up with any
of the other backs in the T206 set like the Type 1's do I would agree
with you but they do and as a matter of fact they match up exactly
with several of the 350 series backs.

I also contend your minor league explanation supports excluding the
type 1's rather than including them because they would have had to
completely re-arrange at a minimum 2 or 3 sheet layouts in the
middle of printing all of the other T206 backs but if they were using
the plates/artwork after they were used on the T206's it wouldn't
interrupt the printing for the other T206 backs. This is one of the
reasons I asked where the 1910 date came from. Did they print
them right after the 350 only series was finished using the old
plates or did they have access to the plates/artwork and print
them after the printing of the 460 series concluded.


I haven't come across an ad that singles out Red Sun but here's a store
ad that lists Red Sun as one of the Liggett & Myers cigarettes they sell.

Liggett & Myers ad.jpg

[DixieBaseball]

Fair point, Pat but I would be curious what date do you think they printed them? 1912 or 1913? Not likely based off the players in the set and the look of the Coupon is just like the other 16 ATC brands. If they printed them in the 1909-11 time frame, then that would indicate they are the 17th American Lithographic ATC brand, but just printed in limited quantity and released regionally which may or may not been their full intent. I think the same reason they were printed/released in scarcity is the same reason Red Sun was printed/released in scarcity and Red Sun, we know was most likely released in early 1910 (produced in 1909/1910) with the intent to release a 2nd series at some point following that 1st series of 75 cards. With some Coupon cards having as few as 2-3 examples known, it is quite possible there could be a few yet discovered, and then perhaps proofs which might indicate more cards were going to be produced liked the Olberman T206 SL 8 proofs + Eddie Collins Proof. Why were those 9 cards not included in T206 set and why did it take 50 years for those cards to be known? Where do those fit into the T206 set? Does T206 represent 521, 524, or 530 cards to be complete? Why does the Old Mill T210 set released in 1909-10 have 114 cards? If Red Sun T211 which mirrors Old Mill T210 for 75 cards, and were to assume they were going to put 75 more cards in that 2nd series or would they just mirror the T210 set and put only 39 cards in that 2nd series ? All of these numbers are arbitrary for unknown reasons. Perhaps Coupon is the same ?! I believe Coupon was released in 1909-11 time frame and if Red Sun didn't do well and release a 2nd series in New Orleans, I believe Coupon could have been in a similar situation. New Orleans, regional brands perhaps didn't cut it against National brand cigarettes. More discovery hopefully to come!

http://t206resource.com/Olbermann%20Proofs.html

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Jereme, if the American Beauty checklists didn't match up with any
of the other backs in the T206 set like the Type 1's do I would agree
with you but they do and as a matter of fact they match up exactly
with several of the 350 series backs.

I also contend your minor league explanation supports excluding the
type 1's rather than including them because they would have had to
completely re-arrange at a minimum 2 or 3 sheet layouts in the
middle of printing all of the other T206 backs but if they were using
the plates/artwork after they were used on the T206's it wouldn't
interrupt the printing for the other T206 backs. This is one of the
reasons I asked where the 1910 date came from. Did they print
them right after the 350 only series was finished using the old
plates or did they have access to the plates/artwork and print
them after the printing of the 460 series concluded.


I haven't come across an ad that singles out Red Sun but here's a store
ad that lists Red Sun as one of the Liggett & Myers cigarettes they sell.

Attachment 340190

This store ad is really interesting. Where did you find this information? Do you have any idea of the date of this? (I am guessing 1912-1919) Interesting that Red Sun is on the list but Coupon is not. We would need to ask Jon C. but I believe there is only one known Red Sun pack from 1910 known to exist. Also, perhaps only 1 Coupon pack from that era as well, but not sure on that...

[MichelaiTorres83]

Given that a lot of t206 cards are miscut and some have 2 names I would ask if there are any miscut coupons? I also wonder are there any 2 name cards that disprove or contradict 2 name cards in the t206 set?

Every t206 card back has a miscut of some type.

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83

Given that a lot of t206 cards are miscut and some have 2 names I would ask if there are any miscut coupons? I also wonder are there any 2 name cards that disprove or contradict 2 name cards in the t206 set?

Every t206 card back has a miscut of some type.

Interesting questions. I am not aware nor do I believe I have seen a miscut Coupon card and I am not aware of any 2 name Coupon cards, however I believe there may be miscut Type 2 and 3 cards as well as possibly some oddly proportioned borders with possible 2 name on Type 2 & 3 Coupons.

One important thing you need to consider is just the scant quantity of Coupon. With only 68 players and less than 10 known to exists of any of those players (taken into account SGC/PSA pop reports show typically around 2-5 graded examples and of course the raw estimate, I think Coupon's exists in numbers of somewhere around 2-15 examples, perhaps slightly higher of each player. Probably less than 1,000 Total Coupons... (Until a find of an uncut sheet, proofs, or a chest from New Orleans where the smoker only smoked that brand ) That number compared to other brands is 1% or less, so there just may not be enough sample to see any 2 name or miscut Type 1's.

Edited to add : Also consider how big the T210 Old Mill set is and how many cards are in that set it has scant few wrong backs, miscuts, 2 name cards compared to T206. For a set this big, it has a very low number of odd cards. The quality control must have been really good on the T210's.

I think each set has different factors based on quantity, quality control, etc. - Also perhaps logistics may have played a part in some odd way. (American Litho to Train to Factory to Consumer)

[MichelaiTorres83]

There are miscut broadleaf cards, lenox cards, hindu cards etc all of which have card populations under 1000.

The identical factory and brands make it more a t213 if you ask me and really is solid justifaction for a new card T type classification with sub types 1 2 and 3 for subtle differences among cards from the same factory and brand.

Again, I feel the date is irrelevant some and everyone is overthinking it. Especially when I do not think anyone can point me to a rule or document that states a date is a mandatory part of determining what type and class a card should be designated.

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83

There are miscut broadleaf cards, lenox cards, hindu cards etc all of which have card populations under 1000.

The identical factory and brands make it more a t213 if you ask me and really is solid justifaction for a new card T type classification with sub types 1 2 and 3 for subtle differences among cards from the same factory and brand.

Again, I feel the date is irrelevant some and everyone is overthinking it. Especially when I do not think anyone can point me to a rule or document that states a date is a mandatory part of determining what type and class a card should be designated.

Burdick lumped the 16 ATC brands under the T206 designation for his ACC catalog. The date is of relevance. 1909-11.

Not sure about your factory theory... Also Coupon Type 3's also come with a Factory 8 overprint which was in North Carolina. (not New Orleans) Remember, these cards were shipped to all the factories from American Lithographic. Like I said, quality control is different with a lot of brands. The T210 Series 8 should have way more miscut, wrong back, issues than they do, and per my knowledge you can't count on 2 hands the amount of 2 name, or error cards in that series and Thousands of those cards exists. Each production and release could have brought different factors. T211 has either 1 or No error cards and there are hundreds... Some things just can't be explained...

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Burdick lumped the 16 ATC brands under the T206 designation for his ACC catalog. The date is of relevance. 1909-11.

Not sure about your factory theory... Also Coupon Type 3's also come with a Factory 8 overprint which was in North Carolina. (not New Orleans) Remember, these cards were shipped to all the factories from American Lithographic. Like I said, quality control is different with a lot of brands. The T210 Series 8 should have way more miscut, wrong back, issues than they do, and per my knowledge you can't count on 2 hands the amount of 2 name, or error cards in that series and Thousands of those cards exists. Each production and release could have brought different factors. T211 has either 1 or No error cards and there are hundreds... Some things just can't be explained...

Where does it say that date is a criteria?

[Pat R]

Thank you for your response Jeremy. I don't think either one of us is
going to change the other persons opinion on this. As I have stated previously
based on extended research of different aspects of the printing of the
T206 set the T213-1's don't match up with any of the 350 series
backs that were printed with subjects used in the T213-1's.
If we find evidence that they were printed during the 350 only
phase (and I have been searching one way or the other) they would be a rule breaker for sure.

I don't think I answered your question about when I felt the T213-1's
were printed. Honestly I don't know it could have been soon after the
350 only printing concluded up until right before the printing of T213-2's
but in my opinion they reused the leftover plates/artwork and
possibly someone selected the subjects they wanted to use for the
T213-1's from the group of plates that were no longer being used.

[SetBuilder]

Using Ted's logic, then Gypsy Queens should be N172's.

[t206fix]

Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83

Again, I feel the date is irrelevant some and everyone is overthinking it. Especially when I do not think anyone can point me to a rule or document that states a date is a mandatory part of determining what type and class a card should be designated.

I think this argument will go on and on until we define what a t206 really is. Wikipedia notes:
The tobacco card set known as T206 was issued from 1909 to 1911 in cigarette and loose tobacco packs through 16 different brands owned by the American Tobacco Company. It is a landmark set in the history of baseball card collecting, due to its size and rarity, and the quality of its color lithographs.

Is there a different definition? Are we arguing what Burdick thought a t206 was, and if so, case closed, he said "no".

When I was 12, I bought boxes of Cookie Crunch trying to complete this stupid set... Do we say that to have a complete 1984 topps set, you need to have this set because it was produced in 1984 by Topps? No, because we have a definition of what the 1984 topps set is comprised of...


So what makes a t206? If we answer that, we can stop arguing, or maybe, we just like arguing.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by t206fix

I think this argument will go on and on until we define what a t206 really is. Wikipedia notes:
The tobacco card set known as T206 was issued from 1909 to 1911 in cigarette and loose tobacco packs through 16 different brands owned by the American Tobacco Company. It is a landmark set in the history of baseball card collecting, due to its size and rarity, and the quality of its color lithographs.

Is there a different definition? Are we arguing what Burdick thought a t206 was, and if so, case closed, he said "no".

When I was 12, I bought boxes of Cookie Crunch trying to complete this stupid set... Do we say that to have a complete 1984 topps set, you need to have this set because it was produced in 1984 by Topps? No, because we have a definition of what the 1984 topps set is comprised of...


So what makes a t206? If we answer that, we can stop arguing, or maybe, we just like arguing.

Good point Tony.

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by t206fix

I think this argument will go on and on until we define what a t206 really is. Wikipedia notes:
The tobacco card set known as T206 was issued from 1909 to 1911 in cigarette and loose tobacco packs through 16 different brands owned by the American Tobacco Company. It is a landmark set in the history of baseball card collecting, due to its size and rarity, and the quality of its color lithographs.

Is there a different definition? Are we arguing what Burdick thought a t206 was, and if so, case closed, he said "no".

When I was 12, I bought boxes of Cookie Crunch trying to complete this stupid set... Do we say that to have a complete 1984 topps set, you need to have this set because it was produced in 1984 by Topps? No, because we have a definition of what the 1984 topps set is comprised of...


So what makes a t206? If we answer that, we can stop arguing, or maybe, we just like arguing.

Yea. I think that is the point. Where is the criteria used to determine a t206 card from the source that did it, not what a random person copied from a Tough Stuff magazine and posted to Wikipedia.

I am not sure how else you determine if someone made a “mistake”. If he says this is my criteria, this is my analysis and its proven incorrect, that is a mistake.

There are 2 ways of reading that.

Wikipedia says that date for when they were issued, but it does not say it is a criteria used to determine a t206. Maybe the criteria for a t206 does not require a date and the date range given is simply supplimental information about the cards.

Is there anything documenting what the criteria was for either a T206 or T213 from Burdick himself? I really do not know and this is a serious question. If so can you post it?

[MichelaiTorres83]

Would the fact that type 2 and 3 being from a factory not associated to t206 at all for any other back and type 1 cards being from the same factory not associated to any other t206 back be enough of a point to classify them as a t213 with the others?

That to me seems like the most logical reason it would not be a t206.

How would one use an undated card to make this determination? If a t206 was printed in 1909, then sold with a 1914 stamp what year was the card issued? To me the date is a lot less relevant than a characteristic of the card itself.

Since there is no date and everyone is guessing it seems most logical to go by the most obvious portions of the card followed by the less obvious ones. Most of the time the answer is the simplest one.

I think he got it right and everyone is overthinking it based on an imaginary date range.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

[/B]

This store ad is really interesting. Where did you find this information? Do you have any idea of the date of this? (I am guessing 1912-1919) Interesting that Red Sun is on the list but Coupon is not. We would need to ask Jon C. but I believe there is only one known Red Sun pack from 1910 known to exist. Also, perhaps only 1 Coupon pack from that era as well, but not sure on that...

I had it in a folder of newspaper clippings I saved. I found another one and I
think you will find this interesting since Red Sun is considered a regional brand
associated with Louisiana. Both ads are from Ohio newspapers the original
ad I posted is from Jan 19 1914 and this one is from Feb 17 1914.

Liggett & Myers Ad 2.jpg

I just spent a couple of hours looking through Louisiana newspapers from
1900-1920 and I couldn't find anything on Red Sun cigarettes.

This is a Liggett & Myers ad that was in a Louisiana paper on Feb 19 1913
that has several brands that are listed in the Ohio ads but no Red Sun.

Liggett & Myers Louisiana Ad.jpg

Here's a larger scan of the brands in the ad
Liggett & Myers Louisiana Ad - Copy.jpg

I also found this W.R. Irby ad in a Jan 11 1914 Louisiana paper. No
Red Sun in this one either but it does have Coupon in the ad. Notice
that all of the brands are in quotation marks including Coupon.

W.R. Irby Ad 1914 Copy.jpg


I have limited knowledge regarding the Red Sun cards but they do seem
similar to the T213's in that they use images from the T210 series 8
which also used some of the T206 images.

So where does the 1910 date on the T211's come from. If it's based on
the subjects in the set like the T213's seem to be I would question how
accurate that date is too if that's the only thing the date is based on.
You can pinpoint an earliest date based on what teams certain subjects
played on at the time but you can't pinpoint a stopping point based
solely on the subjects in the set. There are numerous pre and post
war cards that were printed depicting players on teams that they weren't
on when the cards were distributed.

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I had it in a folder of newspaper clippings I saved. I found another one and I
think you will find this interesting since Red Sun is considered a regional brand
associated with Louisiana. Both ads are from Ohio newspapers the original
ad I posted is from Jan 19 1914 and this one is from Feb 17 1914.

Originally Posted by Pat R

Attachment 340216

I just spent a couple of hours looking through Louisiana newspapers from
1900-1920 and I couldn't find anything on Red Sun cigarettes.

This is a Liggett & Myers ad that was in a Louisiana paper on Feb 19 1913
that has several brands that are listed in the Ohio ads but no Red Sun.

Attachment 340217

Here's a larger scan of the brands in the ad
Attachment 340220

I also found this W.R. Irby ad in a Jan 11 1914 Louisiana paper. No
Red Sun in this one either but it does have Coupon in the ad. Notice
that all of the brands are in quotation marks including Coupon.

Attachment 340221


I have limited knowledge regarding the Red Sun cards but they do seem
similar to the T213's in that they use images from the T210 series 8
which also used some of the T206 images.

So where does the 1910 date on the T211's come from. If it's based on
the subjects in the set like the T213's seem to be I would question how
accurate that date is too if that's the only thing the date is based on.
You can pinpoint an earliest date based on what teams certain subjects
played on at the time but you can't pinpoint a stopping point based
solely on the subjects in the set. There are numerous pre and post
war cards that were printed depicting players on teams that they weren't
on when the cards were distributed.

Pat - Very interesting, but with Liggett having multiple brands for it's factory locations in places like New Orleans, St. Louis, MO., etc - it wouldn't surprise me to see all of their brands listed under their Corporation together, even in Ohio. Very cool and may help further explain the Red Sun story down the road as more information is found. Thnx for sharing that store ad !

Per Lew Lipset's EOBBC, Frank Huelsman (Mobile), who is in the Red Sun set only played with Mobile during the first part of 1909 and Jake Daubert, the Southern Association Batting Champion in 1910 who joined Memphis after the season was underway is not in the Red Sun set. This time stamps the set along with the Southern Assoc players of that era to to 1909-10, so most likely released in 1910. Also Hub Perdue (Nashville) who played in the Majors in 1911 (played for Nashville from 1907-10) is in the Red Sun set. Lots of evidence on timeline that Red Sun is in fact a 1910 set. Those discoveries were made a long time ago by Burdick, later published by Lipset with further time stamps of players, etc. T211 Red Sun is not in question on dating imo and neither is T210 Old Mill as there is many similar dating of players that can be started and stopped around that era with minor league to major league explanations such as the examples mentioned on the Red Suns. (Shoeless Joe is in T210 Old Mill with New Orleans, yet played in 1908-09 for A's, before joining NO for 1910, then onto Cleveland for 1911 season) This indicates to me that OM was produced in 1910, released in late 1910, early 1911. Red Sun can be conservatively put in that same time frame. 1910-11, and most likely Coupon Type 1 as well - 1910-11, which all falls under the time frame of 16 ATC brands release, potentially leaving out the 17th ATC brand, Coupon, from Burdick's 1940's designation of T206 as the 17th ATC brand inclusive of his T206 cataloging of brands.

Back to the Coupon ("Type 1" as Burdick's designation). It's a fact, that Coupon can be more easily tied to T206 / 16 ATC brands than it can to Coupon Mild & Sweet from 1914 ("Type 2" as Burdick's designation) because there are No team changes in the Coupon set of 68, as well as the pictures and captions match up to the rest of the T206 set comparing the 68 cards, but there are are many team changes in the Type 2 and 3 sets, as well as blue lettering, gloss on Type 2's. At the end of the day, all these types are simply Burdick's understanding at that time 75 years ago and that is how he labeled them. Nothing more, nothing less. Pretty obvious, the Type 1's are more alike the 16 ATC Brands from 1909-11, later labeled T206 by Burdick, than they are alike the later dated T213-2&3 sets from 1914 and 1919. Again, if AB is inclusive in T206 with size differences (width), then Coupon should be with size differences (Thickness).

So, my understanding is the entire set of Coupon Type 1 players matches the 350 series players spot on, including the 20 Southern League players from the 8 Southern League teams, correct !? If that's the case, when was the 350 series produced/released?? Further evidence Coupon is a 1910-11 set.

Also, one other important piece to the potential dating of 1910 release for Coupons is within those 20 Southern League players in the Coupon set. Two are from Little Rock. (Hart & Lentz) Little Rock was only a member of Southern Association in 1909 with the other teams Nashville, Memphis, Birmingham, Montgomery, Mobile, New Orleans, and Atlanta. Chattanooga took Little Rock's place in 1910 in the Southern Association, and as we can see from the T210 Old Mill set, the Series 8 is void of Little Rock, but has Chattanooga in it. Further evidence not just on T210 Old Mill, but certainly Coupon as having a 1910 release.

I believe the 68 card set of Coupons is probably not complete. If 9 T206 proof cards can not be known for over 100 years, then a set as rare as Coupon could certainly end up with more cards, even if they are only proofs, scrap, etc... Wouldn't surprise me a bit if a new find yielded some unknown players from that 350 series subjects. (Side note : Type 3 has 70 cards, and Type 2 has 187)

I will lean on Ted, Scot, you, and others on the following questions...

What about the other "Southern Leaguers" from the T206 set? Any patterns with the remaining "SL" players even though they are not actually SL players but called that in the T206 set... (Texas League, South Atlantic League, Virginia League are all absent from the Coupon set, correct !?) The Coupon set has 20 True Southern League players in it. Those 8 Teams represented are period to 1909. This would suggest they were produced & released around that time frame, most likely 1910, but most certainly not later than 1911.

Why is the Coupon set missing T206 Southern leaguers from The South Atlantic, Virginia, and Texas leagues ? Perhaps, it's as easy as where they were released. New Orleans. New Orleans was in the Southern Association obvioulsy and the 20 SL players represent 8 teams in the SA.

And, again wouldn't the Type 1 Coupons matching the 350 series for all 68 cards not put a time stamp of 1910-11 on the set, thus making them the 17th ATC brand ?? What have I missed on the 350 series and the parallel of the 68 Coupon subjects ?


https://www.sportscollectorsdigest.c...f_370_million/

[DixieBaseball]

New Orleans Market selling Coupon Cases/Cartons (Behind Glass) - Notice the Cigarette dispenser on counter... Boy, I would give my pinky nail to go back in time, and have a some fried oysters for lunch right there in that moment for about an hour or two, then purchase some Coupons for the road.... Carton - (Circa 1914-20)

[DixieBaseball]

Coupon