Are the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards really T206's ? ....I think so....What say you ?

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Thanks for the reply Jeremy. My reasons for excluding them from the
T206 set is similar to your reasons for separating them from the Type 1 and 2's.

When I look at the T213-1's they stand out from the way any of the T206
backs were printed.

The T213-1's have three different groups represented in the 68 cards.

I randomly grabbed one of each from my collection as an example.

Attachment 339932


Excluding Piedmont which was used on every card in the set with the exception
of Demmitt and O'Hara St. Louis these three cards are not found with the same
back on any of the T206 backs and the same thing is true for any combination
of one card from each group.

Then you have the minor league players. All of the 350 series backs have minor league players and most of them have over 40% but there isn't a
single minor league player in the T213-1's.

Other people have said that it looks like they reused some of the T206 plates/artwork after the printing of the T206's and I feel the same way
when I look at the group of cards used for the T213-1's.

The following is pure speculation... We know from many of the old newspaper articles that inserting the "baseball pictures" was a big success at the
time. I see the T213-1's as a cheap trial promotion. Print them with the old T206 plates on thinner stock and see how it goes. They find it's
a success so they have them printed on thicker cardboard and decide to change the captions as a cheap way to put their own brand stamp on them
without having to make a bunch of new plates.

Pat - If the Coupon Type 1's were regionally released during the time frame with the other 16 ATC brands released between 1909-11 in New Orleans/South wouldn't they want to stick to the Southern League players and known Big league players of the day and not get into Minor league players from places like Toledo or Buffalo as minor league cards for example? This would indicate regional Southern release to me... I think that is the plausible answer why the minor league players are not present in the 68 card set. Also, this set of 68 seems like a strange number for a release and reminds me of the Red Sun set "First Series 1 to 75" (On reverse of Red Sun card) and the parallel drawn from that Regional release where by they never produced a 2nd series b/c the first series perhaps underwhelmed cigarette consumers. Obviously something caused Red Sun to not make a 2nd series. (Series 2 - 76-150) ?!? Both of these brands, Coupon & Red Sun, were both New Orleans brands and Red Sun was produced/released around 1909-10 time frame (No RS advertisements known as well, correct !?) and most likely Coupon as the 17th American Litho / ATC brand. We don't know that there was not going to be more Coupon (Type 1) cards released. Their rarity indicates something happened, just like it did to Red Sun Series 2 not being produced. I think the Red Sun set indicates something was not quite right in Tobacco/baseball card world in 1910 in that region and if this set was released in that time frame, it perhaps suffered the same fate!? Perhaps Red Sun & Coupon didn't make quite the splash against the larger National brands and the cards were a marketing stunt that just didn't materially help, so ATC / W.R. Irby nixed the series 2 RS & didn't produce/release any more Coupons.

Lastly, if you could show me a Full size American Beauty card, I would go away and say Coupon may not necessarily be one of the 17 Amer Litho ATC brands, but since exception was made on AB, why not exception on Coupon (Type 1)?! This was not a style change, but yet a size change (Width of card) and so was Coupon, a size change (Thickness of card).

Everything about the Type 1 Coupon looks like the other 16 Amer Litho - ATC brands including Ty Cobb Tobacco with exception to the thickness which can be explained by American Beauty as it is clearly different. Also there is no argument or debate for Type 2 and 3 Coupons as that would be no different than Old Mill making another set of cards in 1914 and 1919. That seems to throw people off imho. Also consider that Old Mill was on another completely different set (T210). Why not call them Old Mill Type 1 & 2 ?!? My point is Burdick made a catalog for cards. A wonderful way to help collectors... Just because he labeled certain cards T206 or T213-1 doesn't change anything about the card being just like the other American Litho - ATC brands. If you include American Beauty as a T206, then Coupon should be as well. (Not Coupon Type 2 or 3)

[rats60]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Pat - If the Coupon Type 1's were regionally released during the time frame with the other 16 ATC brands released between 1909-11 in New Orleans/South wouldn't they want to stick to the Southern League players and known Big league players of the day and not get into Minor league players from places like Toledo or Buffalo as minor league cards for example? This would indicate regional Southern release to me... I think that is the plausible answer why the minor league players are not present in the 68 card set. Also, this set of 68 seems like a strange number for a release and reminds me of the Red Sun set "First Series 1 to 75" (On reverse of Red Sun card) and the parallel drawn from that Regional release where by they never produced a 2nd series b/c the first series perhaps underwhelmed cigarette consumers. Obviously something caused Red Sun to not make a 2nd series. (Series 2 - 76-150) ?!? Both of these brands, Coupon & Red Sun, were both New Orleans brands and Red Sun was produced/released around 1909-10 time frame (No RS advertisements known as well, correct !?) and most likely Coupon as the 17th American Litho / ATC brand. We don't know that there was not going to be more Coupon (Type 1) cards released. Their rarity indicates something happened, just like it did to Red Sun Series 2 not being produced. I think the Red Sun set indicates something was not quite right in Tobacco/baseball card world in 1910 in that region and if this set was released in that time frame, it perhaps suffered the same fate!? Perhaps Red Sun & Coupon didn't make quite the splash against the larger National brands and the cards were a marketing stunt that just didn't materially help, so ATC / W.R. Irby nixed the series 2 RS & didn't produce/release any more Coupons.

Lastly, if you could show me a Full size American Beauty card, I would go away and say Coupon may not necessarily be one of the 17 Amer Litho ATC brands, but since exception was made on AB, why not exception on Coupon (Type 1)?! This was not a style change, but yet a size change (Width of card) and so was Coupon, a size change (Thickness of card).

Everything about the Type 1 Coupon looks like the other 16 Amer Litho - ATC brands including Ty Cobb Tobacco with exception to the thickness which can be explained by American Beauty as it is clearly different. Also there is no argument or debate for Type 2 and 3 Coupons as that would be no different than Old Mill making another set of cards in 1914 and 1919. That seems to throw people off imho. Also consider that Old Mill was on another completely different set (T210). Why not call them Old Mill Type 1 & 2 ?!? My point is Burdick made a catalog for cards. A wonderful way to help collectors... Just because he labeled certain cards T206 or T213-1 doesn't change anything about the card being just like the other American Litho - ATC brands. If you include American Beauty as a T206, then Coupon should be as well. (Not Coupon Type 2 or 3)

I would be for excluding American Beauty from the t206 cards, except they were used for t205 cards also. So, clearly they were intended to be part of t206. Not so for Coupon. Coupon is an unique set and in my opinion should remain that way.

[RCMcKenzie]

I wonder why Carlos Smith Shreveport was not included in the T213-1 series?

How do people view the 136 cards found with a Hindu brown back? Is that a set? There's no Cobb. Before Burdick, how did people know that a sweet cap 150 back and a Hindu SLer were part of the same "set"?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I wonder why Carlos Smith Shreveport was not included in the T213-1 series?

Hi Rob

The Shreveport Giants were in the Southern Association 1901 - 1903.
Then Shreveport became the Pirates in the Southern Association 1904 - 1907.
During 1908 - 1910 they were transferred to the Texas League.


Hey guys....this LEAGUE change for Shreveport, in my opinion, certainly narrows the timeline window
of the printing of the 1910 COUPON set.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[insidethewrapper]

Let me start out by saying ,"I don't understand the T206 set and all the different backs". Seems like 16 or so different sets to me. If Topps came out with cards and placed them in candy bars ( Almond Joy, Kit-Kat, Payday,Mounds,Mr. Goodbar etc, etc), let's say all brands made from the same company with different backs, I think they would all be different sets and listed as 2019 Almond Joy, 2019 Kit-Kat etc.
Could someone explain why this wasn't done with the T206 set with all the different backs ? Thanks

[tedzan]

Hi Mike

Here's the simple answer to your very good question....

Breaking down the T206 set into 16 sub-sets would have been too complex at that time when Jefferson Burdick catalogued these T-cards. And, actually it still is.

Personally, I would have preferred this if he had each T-brand a set in their own. In recent years, I have put together T206 sets according to the various brands...…

AMERICAN BEAUTY 460
PIEDMONT
SOVEREIGN
SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30


TED Z

T206 Reference
.