recent auto counterfeits - the effects on auto collecting??

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by irv

I just received a Heritage pamphlet for an upcoming auction on Feb 23rd-24th.

In it it shows a 1948 Babe Ruth single signed baseball PSA/DNA Mint 9 that shows it sold for $228,000 dollars once upon a time.
As you open the pamphlet up, right in the middle it shows another 1948 Babe Ruth single signed Baseball, PSA/DNA NM-MT 8 with only an estimate of $50,000?

Is there that much of a difference between a signed 9 and 8 or is this a reflection of the current signed card/memorabilia story that is going on?

I looked for the auction on their website but could not find it? I did notice this, however.
https://blog.ha.com/2017/10/sports-a...natures-101917

Give or take, that is indeed the difference between a Ruth ball w/an overall PSA 8 vs. 9 grade. Absolutely. FYI, the large disparity in pricing is due to the minimal number of PSA 9 single signed Ruth balls in circulation. They are few and far between. A PSA 8 ball is great, but they are not extremely rare at the 8 grade. Once again, similar to a high-grade baseball card with a low pop, pricing is based on supply vs. demand. There are many eccentric enthusiasts that crave to own a Mint 9 Ruth ball, with minimal opportunities to capture one.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Give or take, that is indeed the difference between a Ruth ball w/an overall PSA 8 vs. 9 grade. Absolutely. FYI, the large disparity in pricing is due to the minimal number of PSA 9 single signed Ruth balls in circulation. They are few and far between. A PSA 8 ball is great, but they are not extremely rare at the 8 grade. Once again, similar to a high-grade baseball card with a low pop, pricing is based on supply vs. demand. There are many eccentric enthusiasts that crave to own a Mint 9 Ruth ball, with minimal opportunities to capture one.

As I don't play the auto game, exactly what differences are they looking for that are noticed between a sig designated an 8 or a 9?

It seems silly to me, but that's jmo, on how a sig can be designated a grade the same way a card can be?

I can understand an old faded one compared to a well preserved one but if say, Ruth for example signed it, what makes his signature less worthy compared to other ones he has signed?

I don't know about anyone else, but if I had a proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, signed Ruth card or ball, I really don't think I'd be concerning myself with how well it was written by him.

[SMPEP]

I guess I'm lucky as this doesn't affect me at all.

I never understood why someone would pay top money for a pristine card, but would also pay top money for a card with writing on it because it was "autographed".

Either we as collectors think pristine cards have value or we as collectors think cards with writing (call them "autographs" instead of graffiti if you prefer) have value. But to my mind ... you CAN'T have both be valuable. They are contradictions of each other!!!

Actually in truth, I never understood why you would pay a premium for either a pristine or autographed card.

So, as a result - I never buy either. And I've never made any money off of my hobby - but I've also never lost any!

I can live with that.

Cheers,
Patrick

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by irv

As I don't play the auto game, exactly what differences are they looking for that are noticed between a sig designated an 8 or a 9?

It seems silly to me, but that's jmo, on how a sig can be designated a grade the same way a card can be?

I can understand an old faded one compared to a well preserved one but if say, Ruth for example signed it, what makes his signature less worthy compared to other ones he has signed?

I don't know about anyone else, but if I had a proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, signed Ruth card or ball, I really don't think I'd be concerning myself with how well it was written by him.

As you know, the value of virtually everything in the hobby is highly driven by optics/aesthetics. A graded Ruth ball has two variables: the grade for the ball and the grade for the signature, from which a “TOTAL GRADE” is calculated. Typically, it’s a simple formula: (Ball Grade + Auto Grade)/2. However, PSA will give half bumps based on excellent eye appeal. For instance, a 6 ball grade and 7 signature grade with super eye appeal may be given an overall 7 grade (vs. the 6.5 formula grade) if PSA feels the overall aesthetics merit a bump. Totally subjective. Regarding whether a signature should be graded an 8 or 9, we are unfortunately at the mercy of the authenticators. I’ve seen 8s that should be 9s and vice-versa. No different than the ongoing complaints we hear from collectors who are upset with their card submission grades/assessments.

[Leon]

So what you are saying is Marino was better sometimes than others? How does anyone really know?

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Give or take, that is indeed the difference between a Ruth ball w/an overall PSA 8 vs. 9 grade. Absolutely. FYI, the large disparity in pricing is due to the minimal number of PSA 9 single signed Ruth balls in circulation. They are few and far between. A PSA 8 ball is great, but they are not extremely rare at the 8 grade. Once again, similar to a high-grade baseball card with a low pop, pricing is based on supply vs. demand. There are many eccentric enthusiasts that crave to own a Mint 9 Ruth ball, with minimal opportunities to capture one.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Leon

So what you are saying is Marino was better sometimes than others? How does anyone really know?

Leon - For the most part, Grad, Keating & Spence are good at what they do. Especially with higher-end autographs. Are mistakes made...yes. But no less mistakes than TPGs in other areas of this hobby. If you think otherwise, you are only fooling yourself. If I had a dollar bill for every thread I’ve seen on the 54 board complaining about a card that should not be numerically graded for whatever reason, I could retire right now. Who are we kidding here???? To pick on just autographs borders on insanity....

[mrvster]

Vintageclout.......

in all due respect, it is super super super super super easy to fake an autograph I am sure....all you have to do is pick up a pen/sharpie and let 'er rip



just saying....

future will need more "proof" that an item is the real deal....

where is tillman frititta??????????

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by mrvster

Vintageclout.......

in all due respect, it is super super super super super easy to fake an autograph I am sure....all you have to do is pick up a pen/sharpie and let 'er rip



just saying....

future will need more "proof" that an item is the real deal....

where is tillman frititta??????????

With all due respect.....you are WRONG!!!!! If you think just anyone can get a prominent autograph like ruth, gehrig, Mathewson, etc. past Grad, Keating, Spence, etc. you are BADLY MISTAKEN. You obviously don’t collect high end autographs so this conversation is out of your league. But, I might add, there are nearly 3,000 8, 9, 10 graded T206s on the PSA pop chart and you feel comfortable that all of those 110 year old cards miraculously retained a majority of their original factory issued condition without any tampering.....ok.....

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by mrvster

Vintageclout.......

in all due respect, it is super super super super super easy to fake an autograph I am sure....all you have to do is pick up a pen/sharpie and let 'er rip



just saying....

future will need more "proof" that an item is the real deal....

where is tillman frititta??????????

My final point is that while 3rd party autograph experts at times do make mistakes, the same scenario easily exists for the hobby”s card graders. Laser cutting advancements, undisclosed restoration, etc. have elevated card doctoring to a new level whereby card doctors are now even working on enhancing NEW cards (there is a current thread on this issue). To isolate the autograph collecting angle as being too risky (vs. high grade cards as an example) is ridiculous.

[Leon]

There is immeasurable fraud in the card hobby with faking, altering and everything else in between. It isn't only autographs which are plagued. At the end of the day I guess it comes down to what each of us are comfortable collecting. Good luck in the hunt!!

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Leon - For the most part, Grad, Keating & Spence are good at what they do. Especially with higher-end autographs. Are mistakes made...yes. But no less mistakes than TPGs in other areas of this hobby. If you think otherwise, you are only fooling yourself. If I had a dollar bill for every thread I’ve seen on the 54 board complaining about a card that should not be numerically graded for whatever reason, I could retire right now. Who are we kidding here???? To pick on just autographs borders on insanity....

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Leon

There is immeasurable fraud in the card hobby with faking, altering and everything else in between. It isn't only autographs which are plagued. At the end of the day I guess it comes down to what each of us are comfortable collecting. Good luck in the hunt!!

Leon - no better way of saying it! To each his own!

[mrvster]

it proves that tpgs are really sloppy, e not just a mistake here and there...just recently with these t206 ALOT went through......2 dozen or more and probably a lot more...

you must be heavily invested in auto stuff......I would be nervous and defensive too

[mrvster]

also, but anyone can pick up a pen or a sharpie.....these are WAY TOO EASY TO FAKE!

just proven by this recent t206s ....not a few......by a ton

[Hankphenom]

A few observations:

1) How good are you at your job? Are you perfect? Is everybody at your company perfect? I will take a wild leap and say that for just about everybody here, they're about as good at what they do as the top TPAs are at what they do. Are pilots perfect? Do you still fly? I rest my case.

2) However imperfect they might be, TPAs on both the card and autograph sides have cleaned up the hobby a LOT. I don't know the percentage, but I do know that collectors can rely on their purchases a hell of a lot more now than they could 25 years ago. Those of us who have been around that long know that it's the difference between night and day.

3) What's the total of forged cards discovered? And even granting there are many more forgeries that will never come to light, what's the total percentage of forgeries that have gotten past the top TPAs compared to the ones that haven't? I think a guess of 1% would probably be way too high.

4) In conclusion: when it comes to forgeries and fraud, things aren't perfect in our world, but they're so much better than before the TPGs came along. So how about we get back to enjoying the hobby. Or get out, if you can't stand the imperfection of it, that's everybody's choice. But for God's sake stop all the bitching and leave the rest of us alone.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by mrvster

it proves that tpgs are really sloppy, e not just a mistake here and there...just recently with these t206 ALOT went through......2 dozen or more and probably a lot more...

you must be heavily invested in auto stuff......I would be nervous and defensive too

75-80% of my collection is vintage cards so, once again, you are wrong! At least you’re consistent.