recent auto counterfeits - the effects on auto collecting??

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Leon

So what you are saying is Marino was better sometimes than others? How does anyone really know?

Leon - For the most part, Grad, Keating & Spence are good at what they do. Especially with higher-end autographs. Are mistakes made...yes. But no less mistakes than TPGs in other areas of this hobby. If you think otherwise, you are only fooling yourself. If I had a dollar bill for every thread I’ve seen on the 54 board complaining about a card that should not be numerically graded for whatever reason, I could retire right now. Who are we kidding here???? To pick on just autographs borders on insanity....

[mrvster]

Vintageclout.......

in all due respect, it is super super super super super easy to fake an autograph I am sure....all you have to do is pick up a pen/sharpie and let 'er rip



just saying....

future will need more "proof" that an item is the real deal....

where is tillman frititta??????????

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by mrvster

Vintageclout.......

in all due respect, it is super super super super super easy to fake an autograph I am sure....all you have to do is pick up a pen/sharpie and let 'er rip



just saying....

future will need more "proof" that an item is the real deal....

where is tillman frititta??????????

With all due respect.....you are WRONG!!!!! If you think just anyone can get a prominent autograph like ruth, gehrig, Mathewson, etc. past Grad, Keating, Spence, etc. you are BADLY MISTAKEN. You obviously don’t collect high end autographs so this conversation is out of your league. But, I might add, there are nearly 3,000 8, 9, 10 graded T206s on the PSA pop chart and you feel comfortable that all of those 110 year old cards miraculously retained a majority of their original factory issued condition without any tampering.....ok.....

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by mrvster

Vintageclout.......

in all due respect, it is super super super super super easy to fake an autograph I am sure....all you have to do is pick up a pen/sharpie and let 'er rip



just saying....

future will need more "proof" that an item is the real deal....

where is tillman frititta??????????

My final point is that while 3rd party autograph experts at times do make mistakes, the same scenario easily exists for the hobby”s card graders. Laser cutting advancements, undisclosed restoration, etc. have elevated card doctoring to a new level whereby card doctors are now even working on enhancing NEW cards (there is a current thread on this issue). To isolate the autograph collecting angle as being too risky (vs. high grade cards as an example) is ridiculous.

[Leon]

There is immeasurable fraud in the card hobby with faking, altering and everything else in between. It isn't only autographs which are plagued. At the end of the day I guess it comes down to what each of us are comfortable collecting. Good luck in the hunt!!

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Leon - For the most part, Grad, Keating & Spence are good at what they do. Especially with higher-end autographs. Are mistakes made...yes. But no less mistakes than TPGs in other areas of this hobby. If you think otherwise, you are only fooling yourself. If I had a dollar bill for every thread I’ve seen on the 54 board complaining about a card that should not be numerically graded for whatever reason, I could retire right now. Who are we kidding here???? To pick on just autographs borders on insanity....

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Leon

There is immeasurable fraud in the card hobby with faking, altering and everything else in between. It isn't only autographs which are plagued. At the end of the day I guess it comes down to what each of us are comfortable collecting. Good luck in the hunt!!

Leon - no better way of saying it! To each his own!

[mrvster]

it proves that tpgs are really sloppy, e not just a mistake here and there...just recently with these t206 ALOT went through......2 dozen or more and probably a lot more...

you must be heavily invested in auto stuff......I would be nervous and defensive too

[mrvster]

also, but anyone can pick up a pen or a sharpie.....these are WAY TOO EASY TO FAKE!

just proven by this recent t206s ....not a few......by a ton

[BearBailey]

Sadly there will be little to no effect on auto collecting, operation bullpen and Marino were so much bigger than this and it had little effect on the industry. I hate to say it but this is so small in comparison it just won’t have the needed impact to eliminate this kind of activity. Some people want to believe and will pay no matter what. I still remember the Dilbert comic strip shortly after operation bullpen, Moses no but we can have it by next week.

[mrvster]

collectors are going to pour a lot of moola into autos, where as the dilution rate is increasing....(fake vs real)

future validation will be tough without decent provenance.....

sky is falling , collectors will just "turn a blind eye".....

nice if you have cash to burn......

investing or collecting in autos will be risky, because the fraud will only increase as proven today....

marino, t206 scam, whatever, I don't see it getter any better or solving the fraud without decent documentation or provenance...

an escalating problem with no apparent solution in sight....

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by mrvster

also, but anyone can pick up a pen or a sharpie.....these are WAY TOO EASY TO FAKE!

just proven by this recent t206s ....not a few......by a ton

How long do you think it would take the average person to learn how to forge an autograph?

Is there any baseball player past or present that you think would be easy for this first time forger to get by PSA, Spence, or even SGC?

[mrvster]

Great question from an expert like you.....

not sure.....I guess would depend on the type of auto.......like an "Aaron Judge" doesn't look too hard.....Pujols....ect....

I would say a day or so??? maybe after a few months you wouldn't be able to tell the difference???


a true artist or someone with any talent could probably perfect it in a few hours I would assume(you know what it means to assume)


id love to hear from an auto forger!! how easy it is I'm sure

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by bnorth

How long do you think it would take the average person to learn how to forge an autograph?

Is there any baseball player past or present that you think would be easy for this first time forger to get by PSA, Spence, or even SGC?

+1 Thank you for this common sense! Trust me, Grad, Spence & Keating are better than people think. Especially for high end autographs. They absolutely scrutinize Ruth’s, Gehrig’s, Matty’s, etc., almost to the point where you have to worry about having a real signature declined.

[Hankphenom]

A few observations:

1) How good are you at your job? Are you perfect? Is everybody at your company perfect? I will take a wild leap and say that for just about everybody here, they're about as good at what they do as the top TPAs are at what they do. Are pilots perfect? Do you still fly? I rest my case.

2) However imperfect they might be, TPAs on both the card and autograph sides have cleaned up the hobby a LOT. I don't know the percentage, but I do know that collectors can rely on their purchases a hell of a lot more now than they could 25 years ago. Those of us who have been around that long know that it's the difference between night and day.

3) What's the total of forged cards discovered? And even granting there are many more forgeries that will never come to light, what's the total percentage of forgeries that have gotten past the top TPAs compared to the ones that haven't? I think a guess of 1% would probably be way too high.

4) In conclusion: when it comes to forgeries and fraud, things aren't perfect in our world, but they're so much better than before the TPGs came along. So how about we get back to enjoying the hobby. Or get out, if you can't stand the imperfection of it, that's everybody's choice. But for God's sake stop all the bitching and leave the rest of us alone.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

A few observations:

1) How good are you at your job? Are you perfect? Is everybody at your company perfect? I will take a wild leap and say that for just about everybody here, they're about as good at what they do as the top TPAs are at what they do. Are pilots perfect? Do you still fly? I rest my case.

2) However imperfect they might be, TPAs on both the card and autograph sides have cleaned up the hobby a LOT. I don't know the percentage, but I do know that collectors can rely on their purchases a hell of a lot more now than they could 25 years ago. Those of us who have been around that long know that it's the difference between night and day.

3) What's the total of forged cards discovered? And even granting there are many more forgeries that will never come to light, what's the total percentage of forgeries that have gotten past the top TPAs compared to the ones that haven't? I think a guess of 1% would probably be way too high.

4) In conclusion: when it comes to forgeries and fraud, things aren't perfect in our world, but they're so much better than before the TPGs came along. So how about we get back to enjoying the hobby. Or get out, if you can't stand the imperfection of it, that's everybody's choice. But for God's sake stop all the bitching and leave the rest of us alone.

Hi Hank, it’s JoeT and I hope all is well. FYI, you are 100% correct regarding TPGs. Before we had them, Operetion Bullpen was the first extensive effort to try and clean up the hobby. While they did a decent job of weeding out numerous fake autographs, it wasn’t until the hobby adopted several TPGs that the autograph collecting market steamrolled ahead. No authentication process is perfect but the TPGs have instilled a strong level of confidence that has resulted in a very strong hobby as we stand today. This includes card graders and autograph/game used authenticators. Like you, I don’t expect everyone to sleep well at night with regard to the process being perfect, but it sure as hell stands light years ahead of where it was. Whenever there is serious money involved there will always be thieves (autograph forgery, card doctors, etc.), and collectors will simply have to move forward and work around the acts of these malicious scumbags. Corporate America has survived serious insider trading, Enron, etc., and the memorabilia circuit will likewise continue to forge ahead.

Happy New Year to you & your family!

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by mrvster

it proves that tpgs are really sloppy, e not just a mistake here and there...just recently with these t206 ALOT went through......2 dozen or more and probably a lot more...

you must be heavily invested in auto stuff......I would be nervous and defensive too

75-80% of my collection is vintage cards so, once again, you are wrong! At least you’re consistent.