Lee Smith & Harold Baines??

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagewhitesox

So proud of Harold. Richly deserved.

I do find it funny how some people are shocked/outraged that he made it.
More hits than Jeter, more RBI than Schmidt, Mantle, Speaker, Hornsby, Dimaggio, Matthews, Rice.

Consistent hitter, quiet, just did his job. The anti-White Sox bias is strong still in the national media.

That really isn't a good argument. Omar Vizquel had more hits than Gehrig. So what?
Sad Sam Jones and Jerry Reuss had more wins than Pedro.
Could do that sort of comparison forever.

The JAWS metric tries to give equal weight to career stats and peak period, and again, Baines is the 74th best RFer by that metric.

[riggs336]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That really isn't a good argument. Omar Vizquel had more hits than Gehrig. So what?
Sad Sam Jones and Jerry Reuss had more wins than Pedro.
Could do that sort of comparison forever.

The JAWS metric tries to give equal weight to career stats and peak period, and again, Baines is the 74th best RFer by that metric.

They can put his plaque next to Freddie Lindstrom whose JAWS rating
is 74th among third basemen.

[sreader3]

Donie Bush for Hall of Fame!

Higher career WAR (39.3) than Harold Baines (38.7) and Lee Smith (29.0).

[Chuck9788]

Harold Baines rules! He was a great player and is a well deserved Hall of Famer. Lee Smith is a no brainer. These guys are legends.

The players and mangers you feel are more deserved will earn their keys to Cooperstown in due time.

[gman]

An interesting note is that Baines was only on the BBWAA ballot for five years before being dropped off. The highest percentage he achieved during this time was only 6.1 % (with 75% needed to be elected into the Hall). Just sayin'

[sreader3]

I would like to know what the criteria for election are. Is it the Hall of Fame (name ID in the general public)? The Hall of Stats (some 5-year or career metric of WAR), or something else? Baines and Smith seem to fail every conceivable objective test.

Not picking on them -- many others do too. George Kell anyone?

[bigred1]

I am alright with Smith. Cant see Baines though, in any statistical or other way, someone(s) smiling over him.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by sreader3

I would like to know what the criteria for election are. Is it the Hall of Fame (name ID in the general public)? The Hall of Stats (some 5-year or career metric of WAR), or something else? Baines and Smith seem to fail every conceivable objective test.

Not picking on them -- many others do too. George Kell anyone?

2800 Hits and 1600 RBIs. Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio and Mike Schmidt fail those metrics. Maybe we should kick them out. 450 saves. Eckersley, Gossage, Sutter and Fingers fail that metric. They are out.

I don't understand the obsession with WAR. It is just a made up stat based on a person(s) opinion. Bill James doesn't like it. It clearly has its faults. Why is it so had to allow others to have different opinions? The voters clearly like Baines and Smith's actual production over WAR. Deal with it.

These guys are compilers. There is clearly a place in the HOF for guys like that. Playing at a high level for a long time has always been a way to make it. Lee Smith has more WAR than Hoffman, Fingers and Sutter. He is 3rd all time in saves. He shouldn't be a surprise. He got over 50% of the writers vote. That generally leads to induction.

Baines is a bit of a stretch. However, of players with 2800 hits clean, only Omar Vizquel isn't in the HOF and he is getting a lot of support. Of players with 1600 RBIs clean, Baines was the last not in the HoF. Kell only had 2054 hits and 870 RBIs, he is not in the same class as Baines as are many others. These guys clearly do pass the objective test of Hofers, at least ones elected by Veterans Committees over the years.

[OldOriole]

I don't mind Smith getting in and I've always like Baines, a nice and genuine guy. My question is 'Why did you have to elect Baines under these questionable conditions?'. The 16 person panel voting for induction included Harold's former manager, Harold's former GM, and Harold's former owner. Couldn't you compile a more impartial panel? If he's truly deserving then why stack the deck?

Also, I sure hope this does NOT open the floodgates for similar good players, who were 'compilers'. I've seen several mentioned in this thread. Are tomorrow's mistakes justified by today's?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by OldOriole

I've seen several mentioned in this thread. Are tomorrow's mistakes justified by today's?

Ah, have you see prices realized on cards after an overpay?

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by OldOriole

Also, I sure hope this does NOT open the floodgates for similar good players, who were 'compilers'. I've seen several mentioned in this thread. Are tomorrow's mistakes justified by today's?

That already happened when Andre Dawson got in, now the gates will open for other nondeserving players like Dave Parker, Dale Murphy, etc.

Lee Smith opens the door for John Franco and Billy Wagner.