Lee Smith & Harold Baines??

[keithsky]

I just could never figure out the obsession with Mariano Rivera. The guys who's he's pitching to have played nine innings out in the 90 plus degree heat. He comes in for a half inning all refreshed from sitting around a whole game not in the heat pitching to guys who are tired playing a whole game and all of a sudden he's an elite pitcher. Give me a break.

[packs]

Originally Posted by keithsky

I just could never figure out the obsession with Mariano Rivera. The guys who's he's pitching to have played nine innings out in the 90 plus degree heat. He comes in for a half inning all refreshed from sitting around a whole game not in the heat pitching to guys who are tired playing a whole game and all of a sudden he's an elite pitcher. Give me a break.

Maybe you should take a look at his numbers, pal. I watched him play every day. The game was essentially over as soon as he entered it. Even more so in the post season. Inning per inning he is probably the greatest pitcher of all time. I can not think of a single name I'd rather hear coming into any game in any era on any planet other than Mariano Rivera.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by packs

Maybe you should take a look at his numbers, pal. I watched him play every day. The game was essentially over as soon as he entered it. Even more so in the post season. Inning per inning he is probably the greatest pitcher of all time. I can not think of a single name I'd rather hear coming into any game in any era on any planet other than Mariano Rivera.

+1 from a Red Sox fan

[commishbob]

IMO Rivera is a no-brainer HoF inductee and this comes from a guy who is no fan of the Yankees. He was just ridiculously effective as a closer. When you are in the conversation re:the best ever at your position you have to be in the Hall.

I also this Lee Smith has a sold case. Baines, not so much. Not while Hodges, Allen, McGriff, & Mattingly are on the outside looking in.

Hall of Fame debates are always interesting to me. As long as they remain civil.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by keithsky

I just could never figure out the obsession with Mariano Rivera. The guys who's he's pitching to have played nine innings out in the 90 plus degree heat. He comes in for a half inning all refreshed from sitting around a whole game not in the heat pitching to guys who are tired playing a whole game and all of a sudden he's an elite pitcher. Give me a break.

I am hoping this was tongue in cheek?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by keithsky

I just could never figure out the obsession with Mariano Rivera. The guys who's he's pitching to have played nine innings out in the 90 plus degree heat. He comes in for a half inning all refreshed from sitting around a whole game not in the heat pitching to guys who are tired playing a whole game and all of a sudden he's an elite pitcher. Give me a break.

I hate the Yankees, but really? Compare him to his contemporaries who were pitching in the same "easy" conditions you posit. Hoffman is the only one in his neighborhood, and he's on the outskirts.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I hate the Yankees, but really? Compare him to his contemporaries who were pitching in the same "easy" conditions you posit. Hoffman is the only one in his neighborhood, and he's on the outskirts.

Wagner is in that neighborhood and was miles better than Hoffman. In fact, he had a better WHIP than Rivera.

If we're putting in a reliever behind Rivera, start with Wagner, not Lee Smith.

[rhettyeakley]

Neither are the worst selections, they are both “lower tier” in relation to others in the Hall of Fame but I don’t have a major problem with either of them. I feel that Smith compares rather favorably to Bruce Sutter and Baines was a steady performer that made a lot of All-Star teams so I’m not sure why all the hate.

I am as guilty as anyone at overusing WAR, it is a fun stat to throw around but it is a bit arbitrary. People with fairly mediocre numbers can emerge with WAR numbers that are off the charts while others get absolutely killed. Keep in mind Doc Cramer who had some traction for the HOF in the 1970’s has a career WAR of 8.5 according to Baseball-Reference despite over 2,700 hits and a .296 career average (this seems almost impossible to be that low) while Rick Reuschel has a career WAR of 69.7 despite a near .500 career W-L record (214-191) and only ever really led the league in losses and hits allowed.

[insidethewrapper]

Baines compared to Kaline ( stats look about the same- that was a surprize to me ):
G Hits HR RBI Bave SLG
Kaline 2834 3007 399 1583 297 480
Baines 2830 2866 384 1628 289 465

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Neither are the worst selections, they are both “lower tier” in relation to others in the Hall of Fame but I don’t have a major problem with either of them. I feel that Smith compares rather favorably to Bruce Sutter and Baines was a steady performer that made a lot of All-Star teams so I’m not sure why all the hate.

I am as guilty as anyone at overusing WAR, it is a fun stat to throw around but it is a bit arbitrary. People with fairly mediocre numbers can emerge with WAR numbers that are off the charts while others get absolutely killed. Keep in mind Doc Cramer who had some traction for the HOF in the 1970’s has a career WAR of 8.5 according to Baseball-Reference despite over 2,700 hits and a .296 career average (this seems almost impossible to be that low) while Rick Reuschel has a career WAR of 69.7 despite a near .500 career W-L record (214-191) and only ever really led the league in losses and hits allowed.

Someone on this very board tried to argue that Rick Reuschel and Bob Forsch were better than Jim Palmer based on (their interpretation of) metrics.

[Touch'EmAll]

I don't hold the Hall in the same high regard as when I was a kid. I always thought of the Hall as a place for the best - y'know, for the guys who you would pay to see. Nothing against the guy, but I wouldn't pay to go to a ballgame to just see Harold Baines, sorry.