Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[oldjudge]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think demand will suffer a lot more than supply. I don't believe collectors will trust graders to get it right and I think prices will weaken/crater. I would love to be wrong since I think this will be bad for the hobby, but that is what I believe.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think demand will suffer a lot more than supply. I don't believe collectors will trust graders to get it right and I think prices will weaken/crater. I would love to be wrong since I think this will be bad for the hobby, but that is what I believe.

From my own no dog in the fight perspective I disagree somewhat. I think people WANT to believe the autographs are real, so many or most will tell themselves yeah there was a problem but it's cleaned up now. Wishful thinking will always outstrip cynicism.

[T206Collector]

I still don’t really know where this all will sit with me as time goes on.

But, consider that the Mastro Wagner is still encased in the PSA holder it was given nearly 30 years ago, while a $900 Doyle auto that may very well be legit is viewed as too risky to keep in the PSA holder it was placed into 5 years ago.

By all means, PSA can change its mind, but a little consistency would be appreciated.

[RedsFan1941]

i'd much rather a grading company evaluate the signature itself instead of when it was previously slabbed or what "find" a card might be from.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

i'd much rather a grading company evaluate the signature itself instead of when it was previously slabbed or what "find" a card might be from.

The definition of provenance is “a record of ownership of a work of art or an antique, used as a guide to authenticity or quality.” I’d argue that judging the signature entirely out of context will lead to more mistakes than fewer.

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

The definition of provenance is “a record of ownership of a work of art or an antique, used as a guide to authenticity or quality.” I’d argue that judging the signature entirely out of context will lead to more mistakes than fewer.

and i'd argue that placing too much importance on when a "signed" card was purchased and/or surfaced will end with a collection containing numerous forgeries.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

and i'd argue that placing too much importance on when a "signed" card was purchased and/or surfaced will end with a collection containing numerous forgeries.

Why? What is the connection between provenance and forgeries? A false sense of security?

[T206Collector]

I will tell you that one thing I have definitely learned thus far is to preserve the provenance. For years, once the TPA put the signed card in the case, the value of provenance was significantly diminished. The card once entombed was supposedly forever authentic just because a TPA said so. Who needs the letter enclosing the card from Fred Snodgrass when that happens? Auction houses have been separating letters from cards, and throwing the envelopes into even another lot because the player wrote his last name in the return address.

The 2018 Spring Steiner Auction had four signed T206 cards in it from a wonderfully large through the mail collection. Steiner broke the entire collection up and failed to share the evidence of where the cards were obtained, by whom, and how. Did you know, for example, that the baseball address list that the collector used to find his ballplayers was also included deep in the auction, as just a random, soulless vintage baseball player address list?

http://auction.steinersports.com/lot-104975.aspx

There was space for a “description” like “This is how our consignor of hundreds of TTM autographs found his players” but instead it was left appallingly blank. I spent several hours today combing through two different Steiner Auctions to piece back together the fabric and soul of this collection, which by the way happened to include four signed T206 cards. I’ll post more about it when I complete my research.

[Republicaninmass]

Paul's post brings up the "many 52 topps" in the market. 2 enormous finds were sold after the last few years. One find of about 500 sold though LOTG, and another few hundred from long time collector Hugh Critz. There were more than a handful of ttm and auto seekers in the 50s, many I've had the pleasure of meeting on this board and in my pursuit of a signed 1952 set. Provenance is, or should be, a big part of authentication.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's probably been mentioned already but one consequence may be TPGs become gun shy and decline to authenticate lots of real autos.

[Lordstan]

that is also my concern. Will they now become so conservative that items will fail or be deemed inconclusive. This could also affect auction houses as will they now wind up rejecting more submissions? I think more scrutiny is better in the long run. Hopefully things will fall into a place where getting it right becomes more important that getting more submissions.

[Lordstan]

I think provenance is one factor to consider. It's no different than any other factor like pen type, slant, pressure, etc, etc. No one factor universally trumps others especially when considering giving opinions. No TPA or anyone can guarantee that any auto is real, outside of witnessing situations. We all should consider all factors before giving that opinion.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's probably been mentioned already but one consequence may be TPGs become gun shy and decline to authenticate lots of real autos.

Ots already happened at PSA worh the additional of Corcoran and Keating. Its been very tough getting cards passed. I'd think the addition of people at SGC would straighten things out.