Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[Lordstan]

I posted this in a similar thread on the auto side, but feel it is relevant here as well.

The problem, and my main bone of contention with TPAs in my many rants on Net54 and other places, is that people placed them too high on a pedestal. The public took TPA OPINIONS, and made them definitive confirmations of truth. I saw an interview of a panel of autograph experts, from a number of years ago, where Kevin Keating, who was one of the panel, stated that he wished what PSA would give were called a "Letter of Opinion" rather than a "Letter of Authenticity" for this exact reason. This blind faith in TPAs has given rise to the lowering of our guard as to what we know vs what we want to believe. Due diligence was now something the TPAs were supposed to do for us. Unfortunately, it would be impossible for them to process the volume of autos they do and still take the time to do the legwork Manny did to open up this can of worms.
Now the TPAs did nothing to stop people from taking their opinions as fact. Why would they? The more people trust them, the more business they get.(which of course leads to higher volume which means less time spent per auto, This also means less time to do any sort of investigation like has been done with the T206s. This also means that less skilled and experienced people would need to be vetting the autos in order to meet the time guidelines for submission levels.)
The auction houses also share responsibility as they have now outsourced much of their due diligence to TPAs, for both autos and cards. Why wouldn't they? They get to have clean hands from any disputes as they are not responsible for saying the autos are real. By pushing more and more on the TPA, this furthers their reputation of reliability which increases their business volume, which makes all the problems I noted before that much worse.

No solution will satisfy everyone is the reality. TPAs have good and bad things about them. IMO, The best way to collect autos is to 1) due your own due diligence. Start by being a skeptic and demand the auto be proven real rather than the other way. 2) Develop a network of people whose opinion you trust to help you see things without emotion. 3) Understand what level of risk you are willing to accept. If your answer is none, then you should not collect anything at all. Save your money and go on vacations around the world. Anywhere demand and money meet, criminals will look to take advantage. It is true in any collectible. 4)If it's too good to be true it probably is.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Unfortunately, it would be impossible for them to process the volume of autos they do and still take the time to do the legwork Manny did to open up this can of worms.

It is my understanding that Manny found these in minutes through a simple search. For $XXX, I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect 10 minutes of online research into a particular card.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by conor912

It is my understanding that Manny found these in minutes through a simple search. For $XXX, I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect 10 minutes of online research into a particular card.

10min per item would time out to only 48 items certed per day per 8hr shift or 240 items per week. Considering all the slabs and certs these companies churn out, do you really think most TPAs are spending 10min per item? If they are who is actually doing all the certing? Are the name people at PSA working 30hrs a day? If not, who is doing it? What are their qualifications outside of having a big computer exemplar file?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

do you really think most TPAs are spending 10min per item?

No, I don't. Which is what got them into this mess.

Originally Posted by Lordstan

What are their qualifications outside of having a big computer exemplar file?

That, sir, is a great question.

[whitey19thcentury]

People have touched on the fact that all of these other signed tobacco issue cards and Goudeys that have hit the market over the past couple of years deserve scrutiny, but has anyone raised an eyebrow over the sudden influx of signed 1952 Topps cards that seemingly are in every auction now, too?

[T206Collector]

Here’s another one for the investigation team. Sold on eBay last summer, an American Beauty backed signed Livingston on the reverse. Thoughts on this one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Paddy-...-/362320695143

Better res pics available here:

https://imgur.com/2zaWcwy

https://imgur.com/nLJ87Wc

[HobokenJon]

Thoughts, yes. It’s slabbed with no affirmative evidence of authenticity. It’s thus presumed fraudulent until demonstrated convincingly otherwise. The slab has negative value because it precludes a knowledgeable third party from conducting a proper examination, including testing the ink, which on its face looks awfully suspicious in its boldness. At least the person who signed it or programmed the auto-pen knew that Livingston’s name was misspelled on the front of the card.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Here’s another one for the investigation team. Sold on eBay last summer, an American Beauty backed signed Livingston on the reverse. Thoughts on this one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Paddy-...-/362320695143

Better res pics available here:

https://imgur.com/2zaWcwy

https://imgur.com/nLJ87Wc

I hope the Livingston auto is real. If not, then at least the forger knew better to not add the "e" to the end of the name.

This just really pisses me off. A lot of us have been in this hobby since we were kids. Now I'm really starting to hate something that I grew up loving.

This hobby is turning into a sham (has been for a while):

• PSA8 trimmed Wagner
• PSA graded “Hall” collection T206s
• all the fake cards
• all the fake autographs
• and now this - what some people consider an industry expert in autograph authentication looks like it doesn’t have a clue in what they’re doing (finally proving what a lot of people have been saying for a long time....)

JSA is going to come out stinking on this but somehow I get the feeling they’ll get past this (unfortunately). Personally, I hope this sinks JSA and somehow a hobby evolution starts where things get cleaned up.... you know what they say, "wish in one hand, shit in the other and see which fills up faster"...

I cannot possibly understand how T206Collector and others scammed by this/these assholes must be feeling right now.

[irv]

Originally Posted by whitey19thcentury

People have touched on the fact that all of these other signed tobacco issue cards and Goudeys that have hit the market over the past couple of years deserve scrutiny, but has anyone raised an eyebrow over the sudden influx of signed 1952 Topps cards that seemingly are in every auction now, too?

I don't think anything, at this point, unless it has some real good provenance, can be assumed as being real.

This fiasco will set everything on its ear for a long time, especially now that we know tried, true and trusted authenticators/TPA's made some serious errors!

My only signed (non factory) card that I purchased here sometime ago. I was very happy to receive it and I almost jumped in with collecting signed cards when I heard they were getting hot. Glad now I didn't have the funds to support that!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Charles, Charley, and Charlie all on one card, that's pretty good.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

3) Understand what level of risk you are willing to accept. If your answer is none, then you should not collect anything at all. Save your money and go on vacations around the world. Anywhere demand and money meet, criminals will look to take advantage. It is true in any collectible.

I wrote this is post 290 of this thread. IMO, This is the proper mindset for anyone collecting anything. There will always be bad people trying to take advantage of situations for power, money, control, etc. We all need to define our tolerance level for that risk. I collect autographs because I am comfortable with the risk that is involved. I take measures to try to mitigate that risk, but fully understand that my collection very likely has some bad items in it. Would I prefer them to not be there? SUre. unfortunately, the only way to guarantee that is to only collect autos I see signed in person. To me that would lessen my enjoyment of my hobby

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I wrote this is post 290 of this thread. IMO, This is the proper mindset for anyone collecting anything. There will always be bad people trying to take advantage of situations for power, money, control, etc. We all need to define our tolerance level for that risk. I collect autographs because I am comfortable with the risk that is involved. I take measures to try to mitigate that risk, but fully understand that my collection very likely has some bad items in it. Would I prefer them to not be there? SUre. unfortunately, the only way to guarantee that is to only collect autos I see signed in person. To me that would lessen my enjoyment of my hobby

Well said (again)!