McLain and Sain…..Perfect together.....Should Johnny Sain be in the Hall of Fame ?

[bbcard1]

I was Sain's "handler" along with former Negro League star Wilmer Fields for a television interview in Washington DC. I got to ride in a limo with them from the hotel in suburban Virginia to the television station in Washington DC. I am pretty sure it was on the occasion of a Jackie Robinson anniversary as I recall and I was working with one of the early CSA shows to get publicity. Sain was the first MLB pitcher to face Robinson and Fields had played with him some.

There were "bumps" in the appearance. Fields was just coming off heart surgery and had overslept. I felt bad, but I had to rush him because it was a live sequence. Sain was having the problems men of a certain age have and made us pull over the limo so he could relieve himself behind a dumpster in the middle of Washington DC. We got there just in time for the interview. They were both great. They were also friendly and charming to me and the quirks in our ride to a Washington DC station made it memorable and endearing to me.

[clydepepper]

I am constantly amazed at the many, many interactions members have had with 'our heroes'.

Thanks for sharing


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[iwantitiwinit]

I would like more info before making a decision if it's available. Since Sain was for the most part not the #1 ace on the staff I would think he faced lesser pitching opponents than the #1 ace thereby making it easier for him to accumulate wins as his team would naturally give him a bit more run support. I'd like to see his run support during his starts as compared to say Spahns during the same period. My initial thought is that his pitching and coaching career don't merit induction.

[packs]

I think he was a Tim Hudson level pitcher. Hudson isn't going to sniff induction, though he was very very good.

[brian1961]

Ted, I agree with you. Over 20 years ago, I began thinking about all the teams who hired Johnny Sain as their pitching coach. The man was remarkable, innovative, focused, and really knew what he was doing.

I also read why Mr. Sain was invariably released by each team, and it's a stinking shame each manager could not let their ego get in the way of allowing Johnny to do his job. There is so much involved to being a great manager; if a proven specialist comes on board to "manage" the pitchers, let the genius do his job, for crying out loud!!!!! Johnny Sain's pitchers loved him, and they blossomed. Again, the stuffy etc. etc. MLB Hall of Fame "drops the ball" in failing to recognize and enshrine a very deserving man from his rightful place of fame.

Take care, Ted, and Merry Christmas! --- Brian Powell

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by brian1961

Ted, I agree with you. Over 20 years ago, I began thinking about all the teams who hired Johnny Sain as their pitching coach. The man was remarkable, innovative, focused, and really knew what he was doing.

I also read why Mr. Sain was invariably released by each team, and it's a stinking shame each manager could not let their ego get in the way of allowing Johnny to do his job. There is so much involved to being a great manager; if a proven specialist comes on board to "manage" the pitchers, let the genius do his job, for crying out loud!!!!! Johnny Sain's pitchers loved him, and they blossomed. Again, the stuffy etc. etc. MLB Hall of Fame "drops the ball" in failing to recognize and enshrine a very deserving man from his rightful place of fame.

Take care, Ted, and Merry Christmas! --- Brian Powell

Hi Brian

I appreciate your input regarding Johnny Sain. It's good to see that some one else on this forum does his homework.

Brian....wishing you a very Merry Christmas


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[mark evans]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I am constantly amazed at the many, many interactions members have had with 'our heroes'.

Thanks for sharing


.

I may have mentioned this before, memory fading. I met Denny McClain at the Chantilly show several years ago. He was selling his autobiography. I mentioned that I had processed his Freedom of Information Act request for FBI files many years ago when I was a lawyer with the Department of Justice. He told me he was pleased with the 17 boxes of records we provided regarding his conviction for counterfeiting and other crimes. Small world.

[oldjudge]

Sounds like a nice guy and a good coach, but not even close to a HOFer.

[frankbmd]

Would anybody in favor of his inclusion in the Hall of Fame be considered insane?

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Would anybody in favor of his inclusion in the Hall of Fame be considered insane?

Actually, I think that is the gold standard test.

[tedzan]

Hey you "nay-sayers".....how much do you really know about Johnny Sain's career in Baseball ? ?

I saw him Pitch (1947-1955) and I followed his Coaching career (1961-1975)…. and unless you did too, you're not knowledgeable enough to form an opinion.

Anyhow, check-out these successes......

Whitey Ford was 25-4 (1961) and 24-7 (1963) with Sain as his new coach. Prior to those years, Whitey had not won 20 games.

Jim Bouton in his 2nd year with the Yankees was 21-7, which he credited Johnny Sain for his success.

Jim Katt won 25 games for the 1966 Minnesota Twins. Won 21 (1974) and 20 (1975) with the White Sox. Sain was his pitching coach on both these teams.

Goose Gossage racked up 20-33 Saves per season 10 times. In his autobiography he credits Johnny Sain (1972-1975) for his success on the mound.

And, there are many more successes that I can name. Anyhow, as I said in post #1 here, the most notable one is Denny McLain. It's a shame that Sain did
not stay with Detroit, for I think he would have kept McLain on the straight track.



1947 BOND BREAD rookie card


Look guys, there are Pitchers in the HOF that have considerably less numbers than JohnnySain….. Tom Lasorda for example.

But, of course he's in as a Manager. Then why not induct Sain into the HOF as one of the most effective pitching coaches in BB history ? ?



TED Z

T206 Reference
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[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Would anybody in favor of his inclusion in the Hall of Fame be considered insane?

Yes.

[RedsFan1941]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

no "merry christmas" for you.

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Sounds like a nice guy and a good coach, but not even close to a HOFer.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

exactly

[Fred]

Doesn't look like a HOFer to me.

[Bram99]

What about Allie Reynolds. Sain’s teammate for a stretch with Yankees.

Sain was above average as a pitcher but not great.

Though I like the thought that Sain was a great pitching coach, I think it’s unlikely he would be inducted as a pitching coach.

Allie Reynolds should be next up if any additional pitcher from that golden era (my favorite era) gets in. Allie was a winner and did anything needed to win championships.

Reynolds started and relieved in the same seasons and was one of the best in the league as a starter and a reliever within the same year, and the same World Series several times.

Sain was very good. Allie was great. Super chief!

[stlcardsfan]

114 wins by age 25? That's incredible! Wonder if anyone has exceeded that.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by stlcardsfan

114 wins by age 25? That's incredible! Wonder if anyone has exceeded that.

Well Bob Feller did (137) and he also had two years in military service as well by then. But he is in the HOF

[clydepepper]

The idea of inducting a pitching coach is intriguing, no doubt.

Assistant Coaches are not given their due in any sport - the awards always go to the Managers and Head Coaches.

There have been some noteworthy hitting coaches as well.

Davey Lopes maybe the best 'specialty' coach of All-Time - but he'll never make it.

Ron Washington is making some headway in Atlanta as a specialist in infield defense.

Scouts are given plenty of legendary story-lines of 'landing the big one', but get stiffed as well.

Johnny Sain, as Mr. Z has recounted, is one of the few pitching coaches who 'created' success several times in several different cities and that sets him apart from others making the same efforts.

All that being said, I think we're railing at windmills with this discussion.
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[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by Bram99

Well Bob Feller did (137) and he also had two years in military service as well by then. But he is in the HOF

Matty had 127 wins by his 25th birthday (August 12, 1905) and 150 wins through the end of his age-25 season (1906). Walter Johnson had 115 wins by his 25th birthday (November 6, 1912) and 151 wins through the end of his age-25 season (1913). McLain's 114 wins were through the end of his age-25 season (1969); by his 25th birthday, he "only" had 90 wins. The five pitchers to get 100 wins by their 25th birthday were Matty, WaJo, Feller (107), Smoky Joe Wood (102), and Doc Gooden (100). Three HOFers and two flameouts.

https://www.sporcle.com/games/sweett...-before-age-25

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...athech01.shtml

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...ohnswa01.shtml