Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[calvindog]

Presumably, hopefully, REA will be made whole by the TPA who mistakenly blessed the cards. I'm a little disappointed but of course not surprised that we've heard nothing from any of the other auction houses who sold the fake cards.

As for autographs, other than on checks or official documents I'd stay away. Problem is that we all tend to lose our heads when confronted with something we really want based on a deep-seated childhood desire. A desire that tends to cause us to ignore simple common sense. Just take a look at the BST with some sellers willing to concoct the most hilarious bullshit stories to defraud board members. If it seems ridiculous it is ridiculous. If someone claims a high graded card in some obscure holder has never been sent into PSA or SGC, he's lying. If someone is selling a seemingly pristine raw card at a high price, presume it's trimmed or altered and been rejected by PSA or SGC. If you presume the worst you'll be right 99% of the time. Sad but true.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Presumably, hopefully, REA will be made whole by the TPA who mistakenly blessed the cards. I'm a little disappointed but of course not surprised that we've heard nothing from any of the other auction houses who sold the fake cards.

As for autographs, other than on checks or official documents I'd stay away. Problem is that we all tend to lose our heads when confronted with something we really want based on a deep-seeded childhood desire. A desire that tends to cause us to ignore simple common sense. Just take a look at the BST with some sellers willing to concoct the most hilarious bullshit stories to defraud board members. If it seems ridiculous it is ridiculous. If someone claims a high graded card in some obscure holder has never been sent into PSA or SGC, he's lying. If someone is selling a seemingly pristine raw card at a high price, presume it's trimmed or altered and been rejected by PSA or SGC. If you presume the worst you'll be right 99% of the time. Sad but true.

This times a million.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yep. Even otherwise sophisticated, intelligent, successful people seem to check all these qualities at the door when it comes to cards, autographs, memorabilia. It's the perfect recipe for fraud. It's as Paul Simon wrote -- a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

And this phenomenon is exacerbated by TPG because the holder and the LOA just whitewash the problems and give what is -- in many cases -- false reassurance.

Since none of us are going to stop collecting no matter what scandals emerge, the only choice is to be more careful I guess, and use your common sense at all times.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yep. Even otherwise sophisticated, intelligent, successful people seem to check all these qualities at the door when it comes to cards, autographs, memorabilia. It's the perfect recipe for fraud. It's as Paul Simon wrote -- a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

And this phenomenon is exacerbated by TPG because the holder and the LOA just whitewash the problems and give what is -- in many cases -- false reassurance.

Since none of us are going to stop collecting no matter what scandals emerge, the only choice is to be more careful I guess, and use your common sense at all times.

+1

I think the way the hobby has evolved, too much faith has been put on what the label says. A grade, or a blessing of authenticity, is only an opinion. And because TPGs need to process material as quickly as possible to increase profits, many of the opinions are flawed and inaccurate.

But how many collectors actually assess that? If the label says it's a 9, it's taken by most as a guarantee. Look at what 9's and 10's sell for, and you know that buyers have total confidence in that label. Just the idea that all these fake signatures found their way into slabs should be a wake up call that the system is deeply flawed.

[egbeachley]

Secondary to the fraud is the fact that we all losing all these great 100-year old cards to fake signatures. Too bad we can’t just soak the added ink off the cards to get them back to prior condition as that would be “Altering” them. Although that seems a bit backwards to me.

[David Bender]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Secondary to the fraud is the fact that we all losing all these great 100-year old cards to fake signatures.

This.

[swarmee]

Not sure we're losing that many great cards; these are mostly beaters that are being forged.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Secondary to the fraud is the fact that we all losing all these great 100-year old cards to fake signatures.

That's what I thought. Also what I think about trimming, etc.

[biggsdaddycool]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Secondary to the fraud is the fact that we all losing all these great 100-year old cards to fake signatures. Too bad we can’t just soak the added ink off the cards to get them back to prior condition as that would be “Altering” them. Although that seems a bit backwards to me.

+1


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[iwantitiwinit]

[QUOTE=egbeachley;1831982]Secondary to the fraud is the fact that we all losing all these great 100-year old cards to fake signatures.

I totally agree and that's one of the reasons I collect the Magee cards, I feel as if many have been lost to card doctors trying to change the Magee to Magie. Relative to the autograph forging I'm sorry to say I believe this is just scratching the surface as many have already mentioned. Personally, I wouldn't trust any autograph nor would I collect any card that had been altered in anyway. I would guess that many backstamp cards have been "created" recently though they don't carry anywhere near the premium that the t206 auto cards do.

It's all a sad commentary on the state of some aspects of the hobby. I would think this has ruined the fun of things for many of us as those holding certified t206 auto's are questioning the validity of their signed cards. Not knowing is often worse than knowing. I feel for you. Hope the perpetrators get more than what they deserve.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Secondary to the fraud is the fact that we all losing all these great 100-year old cards to fake signatures. Too bad we can’t just soak the added ink off the cards to get them back to prior condition as that would be “Altering” them. Although that seems a bit backwards to me.

Here's how a real TPG handles a nice item that's got a problem.





Yes, that's mine. As far as I know it's the first of that foreign entry that's been given a certificate. I have a couple others, and it's pretty rare so the issues don't bother me much.

[pokerplyr80]

Is there no way to tell the difference from ink that's been on a card for 30-50 years, or more, and a card that's been signed in the last 5 or 10?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Is there no way to tell the difference from ink that's been on a card for 30-50 years, or more, and a card that's been signed in the last 5 or 10?

There is, but if it's your card, are you willing to have them take a piece of the signature off the card to run it through a mass spectrometer? I'm not sure there is a non-invasive way to test it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by swarmee

There is, but if it's your card, are you willing to have them take a piece of the signature off the card to run it through a mass spectrometer? I'm not sure there is a non-invasive way to test it.

There are non- invasive spectrograph machines. Mostly used for metals. They will give an accurate reading of the elements in the ink, but then you need to know what inks were made of in the past and what they're made of now. Some ink formulas have probably remained unchanged since the 70's.


Those machines are slowly becoming used for stamps, and a few of the things that everyone "knew" have been proven wrong. Like the brown inks for the 1847 stamps were "known" to be pigmented with rust. Except the recent spectrograph showed exactly 0% iron.....

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Is there no way to tell the difference from ink that's been on a card for 30-50 years, or more, and a card that's been signed in the last 5 or 10?

This is precisely the point. There is a way to tell, or there should be - based on the TPG's passing themselves off as "experts." The expertise is the fraud. Just like when David Hall's defense of PSA giving the Gretzky Wagner an 8 was "It doesn't look trimmed to me." What? That's Joe Blow the ripoff guy at your LCS's line, not what you would expect to hear from a supposed "expert" in his field. Well David - what about the cardboard's specific qualities lead you to believe it was not trimmed? What do your years of study of different paper fibers and their aging properties tell you? It's much the same with autograph authentication. The fact of the matter is, while nominally grading of any type (authentication, 1-10, autos...) is "helpful" when buying cards sight unseen, none of it is anywhere near an exact science, and what is far too often overlooked was the hype and marketing drive which led to a company like PSA being able to grow to the size that it is. I think the well-known parties involved in this latest thing w/ the T206's should all have to pay a hefty price in terms of their reputations.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

This is precisely the point. There is a way to tell, or there should be - based on the TPG's passing themselves off as "experts." The expertise is the fraud. Just like when David Hall's defense of PSA giving the Gretzky Wagner an 8 was "It doesn't look trimmed to me." What? That's Joe Blow the ripoff guy at your LCS's line, not what you would expect to hear from a supposed "expert" in his field. Well David - what about the cardboard's specific qualities lead you to believe it was not trimmed? What do your years of study of different paper fibers and their aging properties tell you? It's much the same with autograph authentication. The fact of the matter is, while nominally grading of any type (authentication, 1-10, autos...) is "helpful" when buying cards sight unseen, none of it is anywhere near an exact science, and what is far too often overlooked was the hype and marketing drive which led to a company like PSA being able to grow to the size that it is. I think the well-known parties involved in this latest thing w/ the T206's should all have to pay a hefty price in terms of their reputations.

This is a great point...what "expertise" does PSA even offer to justify the prices their graded cards command? Not much from what I see. Perhaps 60 minutes or halls of shame should investigate this!

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

This is a great point...what "expertise" does PSA even offer to justify the prices their graded cards command? Not much from what I see. Perhaps 60 minutes or halls of shame should investigate this!

All that the vast majority of collectors care about is did their card get the grade they were after, does this high-grade card that they just spent a lot of money on "fit" the grade it was assigned once in-hand, was their auto deemed authentic, etc. etc. This is because (in PSA's example...) despite the boner with the first card they ever graded (the Wagner) - they ARE recognized as an industry leader and something that you can more or less hang your hat on. I'm just as guilty as the rest of you, I sleep way better at night knowing that whatever card is on it's way to me from eBay land was graded PSA X and there is a high chance it will be a good fit in my collection, that I didn't overspend on it, and not something with a hidden crease, hard to detect doctoring, or some other undisclosed flaw. But you are right, nobody ever asks the question who is doing the grading, what is their training and experience? Is it sports collectables experts who know a lot about cards and the common types of altering and damage? Or some college kids on summer vacation who can be shown a basic scale and be more or less "trained" to do the job in a day or so? Don't misread - I don't think it HAS to be someone with a Ph.D. in paper conservancey, or someone who knew the precise patterns of how paper cutters worked in the American Tobacco factories in Virginia at the turn of the last century. But it is true that at least on some level - starting in the early days of PSA and continuing up until now - they bill themselves as "experts" and generally get by with that without incurring much scrutiny. Today, someone like David Hall or Joe Orlando can look at you with as straight face and say, "Well, we are the experts becacuse we have graded 90 zillion cards since 1996..." That may be true. But they also make plenty of mistakes and nobody seems to care - why, what made you guys "experts" when you had not yet graded a single card? It's a fair question. Collectors Universe I believe came later; Mr. Hall had been in the business of grading coins. Now suddenly they are experts in 100 year old pieces of cardboard? Ok, there may be stranger things in the world - but the point is that nobody asks the question.

A random aside that doesn't really fit in anywhere else - what has always intrigued me is comic book grading. How do you become an expert at THAT? In theory it's similar to cards, but man how many pages are in one comic book? If you take some of the hysteria / extreme measures that are starting to be applied to sports card grading, how long would it take to do that with an entire comic book? Um, we'll have this back to you next year. Wait...is PSA already in this business? ;-)

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yep. Even otherwise sophisticated, intelligent, successful people seem to check all these qualities at the door when it comes to cards, autographs, memorabilia. It's the perfect recipe for fraud. It's as Paul Simon wrote -- a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

And this phenomenon is exacerbated by TPG because the holder and the LOA just whitewash the problems and give what is -- in many cases -- false reassurance.

Since none of us are going to stop collecting no matter what scandals emerge, the only choice is to be more careful I guess, and use your common sense at all times.

Yup. The TPG gives the stamp of approval and allows people to exhale. Even when the TPG - like Spence - is shown to be a clown year after year. Collectors are so easily defrauded. As we see on the BST even morons can easily steal.