Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

AH. Let me clarify my answer.

I think, if the person breaks the slab, then I agree with you in some ways. You sold a slabbed card. The person is returning an unslabbed card. Who's to say they didn't do something to the card or are trying to do something underhanded themselves. Supposed the TPA dropped it and damaged the card? I can definitely see there being a case for not accepting it back in that instance.
What I was more addressing was the slabbed card being returned in the same condition but now being know to be fake. Somehow I think I interpreted one of your responses that way.
I agree with Conor in that if you are selling an item, you should stand behind that item, but when the item has been altered it makes the water much more muddy.
As far as the time frame, with a business like a known dealer, the time frame should not matter. When it's a collector to collector, it becomes difficult to swallow the further out it goes. I don't think there is any one right way.

Mark even in the case where the card is still slabbed, I do think I have a timeframe issue the further out one goes. If I were a dealer, I think that's a different situation, then to some extent I think buyers are relying on me as well as the TPG, but as a pure collector not holding himself out as having any expertise, that feels different. On a slabbed card anyhow. Raw card, different matter, but again, there has to be a reasonable timeframe for a return.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Same Buyer on the Baker. Sold by painthistorian on February 23 2015.

Attachment 335738

I have, from a reliable source, the ebay buyer's id (same as the Flick, I guess). The ebay fraud folks are interested in helping too. We will see where this goes. Also, are there any bad ones on ebay right now (does anyone know)?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I dont know why when someone buys cards to than fake sign them, why not change the card more...i know you willl lose some money for a lesser condition card but doesnt these valued Autos make it worth it....if the new person took a corner off or put another black dot or two on it....nobody would of been the wiser.......

plus having 3 dot stains versus now 5 dots..probably changes the value hardly anything

And why did the forger buy slabbed cards which, obviously, can be traced?
That does not make sense to me.
Go to the National and scoop up raw cards would seem to be a much better way to do it.

[Fred]

Has anybody come up with a number of cards that have so far been proven to be incorrectly authenticated as original?

If so, has anyone also come up with the amount of money spent on the known/proven fakes?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have, from a reliable source, the ebay buyer's id (same as the Flick, I guess). The ebay fraud folks are interested in helping too. We will see where this goes. Also, are there any bad ones on ebay right now (does anyone know)?

Do you imagine the criminal(s) who pulled this fraud are reading these threads? Do you suppose they are sleeping well tonight?

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by Fred

Has anybody come up with a number of cards that have so far been proven to be incorrectly authenticated as original?

If so, has anyone also come up with the amount of money spent on the known/proven fakes?

There is a list in the first post.

I'm counting a dozen (11 in this thread + the Marquard in Cliff's thread), plus two maybes.

[Big Six]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have, from a reliable source, the ebay buyer's id (same as the Flick, I guess). The ebay fraud folks are interested in helping too. We will see where this goes. Also, are there any bad ones on ebay right now (does anyone know)?

See Post 262 for six current eBay listings. From what I’ve seen, at least a couple look suspect and one seller had three listings. Better scans below...




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[jad22]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

And why did the forger buy slabbed cards which, obviously, can be traced?
That does not make sense to me.
Go to the National and scoop up raw cards would seem to be a much better way to do it.

They probably got smarter and starting doing that. At what point did the cards start to get altered?

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Do you imagine the criminal(s) who pulled this fraud are reading these threads? Do you suppose they are sleeping well tonight?

I certainly hope they aren't and I hope they rot in hell.

[Fred]

N172 4640 1
N173 58 0
N300 600 1

T3 and T9 6421 1
T201 9869 0
T204 2727 0
T205 37664 7
T206 229758 78

E94 Close 620 1
E101 674 1
E102 632 1
E90-1 4922 0
E90-2 271 0
E90-3 269 1
E91 579 2
E92 blank back 3 0
E92 Crofts Candy 238 0
E92 Crofts Cocoa 95 0
E92 Dockmans 1427 0
E92 Nadja 287 0
E93 Stadard Car 1756 0
E95 Phila Caramel 2024 1
E97 Briggs 498 1
E104-1 Nadja Phil 104 0
E104-2 Nadja Pitt 26 0
E104-3 18 0
E105 Mello Mint 278 1
M116 Sporting Life 6754 0
1933 Goudey 82524 1218
1934 Goudey 22443 133
1939 Playball 21037 210
1940 Playball 22092 173

[Fred]

The first column is the card issue, the second column is the number of cards slabbed by PSA, the third number is the number of autographed cards "authenticated"

N172 4640 1
N173 58 0
N300 600 1

T3 and T9 6421 1
T201 9869 0
T204 2727 0
T205 37664 7
T206 229758 78

E94 Close 620 1
E101 674 1
E102 632 1
E90-1 4922 0
E90-2 271 0
E90-3 269 1
E91 579 2
E92 blank back 3 0
E92 Crofts Candy 238 0
E92 Crofts Cocoa 95 0
E92 Dockmans 1427 0
E92 Nadja 287 0
E93 Stadard Car 1756 0
E95 Phila Caramel 2024 1
E97 Briggs 498 1
E104-1 Nadja Phil 104 0
E104-2 Nadja Pitt 26 0
E104-3 18 0
E105 Mello Mint 278 1
M116 Sporting Life 6754 0
1933 Goudey 82524 1218
1934 Goudey 22443 133
1939 Playball 21037 210
1940 Playball 22092 173


Holy crap look at the 1933 Goudeys! I wonder if PSA, SGC and JSA will provide numbers related to the number of autograph submissions they've had in the past year or two? Anybody wanna bet that the past year or two have seen a HUGE increase in submissions.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I dont know why when someone buys cards to than fake sign them, why not change the card more...i know you willl lose some money for a lesser condition card but doesnt these valued Autos make it worth it....if the new person took a corner off or put another black dot or two on it....nobody would of been the wiser.......

plus having 3 dot stains versus now 5 dots..probably changes the value hardly anything

They did.

[CuriousGeorge]

It’s a sad day when I would trust Manny to authenticate a card before I’d trust Jim Spence. And there is no question I would. I have a ton of baseballs authenticated by Spence too. I’d be better off sending to Manny to look at. Manny, start giving us your rates so we can begin to send you business. I’m sure Leon can sell you some prime advertising space to help get it going.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hmmm.. I had thought from a previous post we were in for an imminent reveal, but maybe not?

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have, from a reliable source, the ebay buyer's id (same as the Flick, I guess). The ebay fraud folks are interested in helping too. We will see where this goes. Also, are there any bad ones on ebay right now (does anyone know)?

Leon, this is big. His feedback history likely contains his entire forgery portfolio. It could be 100 cards or more. All we need to do it look through each one on Cardtarget and Worthpoint by the title and seller ID, and then look to see if any signed versions surfaced 9 months later at auctions. This can blow the case wide open!

[Fred]

Has anybody come up with a number of cards that have so far been proven to be incorrectly authenticated as original?

If so, has anyone also come up with the amount of money spent on the known/proven fakes?

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

There is a list in the first post.

I'm counting a dozen (11 in this thread + the Marquard in Cliff's thread), plus two maybes.

Has anybody added up the total dollars yet? Looks to be into 5 digits at this point.

[insidethewrapper]

When you look at some of these dealers on ebay , they have had 3 or 4 different ID's in their history . Why do you have to change your ID on ebay so often ?

[T206Collector]

Have we found any irregularities about these four, which were found in a Steiner auction (of all places)? I know there have been individual postings about some or all of these. All it would take to add Steiner into the mix would be finding one of these to be fraudulent. It would also give us a New York nexus, and I happen to live here and would be happy to spend some time with the local law enforcement folks.



https://auction.steinersports.com/19...lot104527.aspx

https://auction.steinersports.com/19...lot104524.aspx

https://auction.steinersports.com/19...lot104525.aspx

https://auction.steinersports.com/19...lot104526.aspx

[swarmee]

I started doing it in a post in this thread.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...&postcount=166

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Fred

Has anybody added up the total dollars yet? Looks to be into 5 digits at this point.

I'm at $18,792.80 and counting alone...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I'm at $18,792.80 and counting alone...

How is your day going otherwise?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How is your day going otherwise?

I love all the attention signed T206s have gotten!

In all seriousness, I've gotten an outpouring of sympathy from people on Net54, which has actually been quite comforting. And the number of people managing the investigation on here -- and the quality of their efforts -- has been outstanding. The criminal(s) had no idea this was coming. It's an absolute force.

[Laxcat]

LAW & ORDER: Old Cardboard Squad

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's been impressive for sure, even if the name has not been revealed yet.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

And why did the forger buy slabbed cards which, obviously, can be traced?
That does not make sense to me.
Go to the National and scoop up raw cards would seem to be a much better way to do it.

The beauty of Cardtarget and Worthpoint, however, is that even if you do that, you never know if that card was sold on eBay or another online source that is tracked there. So you could still be outed. However, there is the making of the new fingerprints so to speak to still worry about...

[tsalem]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Have we found any irregularities about these four, which were found in a Steiner auction (of all places)? I know there have been individual postings about some or all of these. All it would take to add Steiner into the mix would be finding one of these to be fraudulent. It would also give us a New York nexus, and I happen to live here and would be happy to spend some time with the local law enforcement folks.



https://auction.steinersports.com/19...lot104527.aspx

https://auction.steinersports.com/19...lot104524.aspx

https://auction.steinersports.com/19...lot104525.aspx

https://auction.steinersports.com/19...lot104526.aspx

Yes, more info on these Steiner listings would be great

[egbeachley]

Has this site matured? The net54baseball site I know would have put the culprits name out there first and then consider guilt vs innocence.

[1treasuretrove]

I imagine a lot of folks keep checking back to see if the user ID was posted. I bet this group here could sweep the feedback history and find another couple dozen cards to add to the list. Interesting to watch this develop...

[1treasuretrove]

Sorry, edited to say: any chance to put sales prices on the page 1 post? A running rally would be good to see how big this fraud is becoming.

[tazdmb]

I feel horrible that this is happening and as an advanced autograph collector hope the perpetrator is caught....but-we all know about Coaches Corner and people like Anthony Nurse/Charity Grows. When the person is ousted, what makes you think any real financial harm will come to this guy (or girl I suppose) when the others are still selling forgeries in plain sight?

[Tabe]

This is such an unfortunate, terrible turn of events. What a mess.

That said, like a couple earlier posters mentioned, this is one reason of the reasons I have always avoided autographed cards/balls (the other being that autographs simply don't appeal to me). The sheer number of autographed T206s has to be a major concern though.

As for trusting TPGs, I am reminded of a story I read once regarding PSA. There was some card show where PSA was setup for on-site card grading and autograph authentication. Someone at the show got an autograph from a guest at the show, walked over to PSA, and tried to get the autograph authenticated. PSA rejected it as not real.

On a lighter note: Where 3rd Bass Pete from Hauls of Shame when you need him?

On a more serious note: For all his flaws, Pete did a ton of work hammering on fakes and fraudulent autographs over the years.

[sgbernard]

Man oh man, work kept me from checking the board in a bit, and I come back to find this. Amazing detective work by the Net54 community. This is just a really awful thing for our members with these cards.

[Fred]

Any way to check the three cards in this thread? There's a McGraw (YOD = 1934) and Jennings (YOD = 1928), which would make those fairly tough signatures, let alone on T206 cards.

These are in the BST and I'm pretty sure the guy selling them is not trying to scam anyone. These are indicated to have been purchased in the 1980s.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=261927

[Blunder19]

in these situations.. who is responsible to refund the buyer? is it the auction house for selling the card advertised as authentic? or the grading company for labeling it authentic? can any of the council board members chime in?

[CrackaJackKid]

Has anyone reviewed the two signed cards that just sold with LOTG? A Doyle T206 and Marquard E91.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mark even in the case where the card is still slabbed, I do think I have a timeframe issue the further out one goes. If I were a dealer, I think that's a different situation, then to some extent I think buyers are relying on me as well as the TPG, but as a pure collector not holding himself out as having any expertise, that feels different. On a slabbed card anyhow. Raw card, different matter, but again, there has to be a reasonable timeframe for a return.

Here's the deal - you buy a car, after a short period no returns unless a lemon, pair of pants, you wash them no returns, Use half a can of soda - no return. What gives people the right to think that they can have an unlimited return on a baseball card? Dealer or not there are limits...

Did Steve Wynn get to return that $115 million dollar painting after he stuck his finger in it - no...

Buying collectables - caveat emptor - just like this board...

Also just because you are buying a collectable card (slabbed or not) doe s not guarantee you the right to believe you are entitled to a profit... eBay's current buyer friendly policies won't stand the test of time - someone will introduce a better mousetrap, same as those folks with the computer based grading system. (Where are they anyway???)

This is more a less the backstory behind Peter's question - the right to feel you are entitled to a profit even though you may not know what you are buying... Rant over

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Tabe

On a lighter note: Where 3rd Bass Pete from Hauls of Shame when you need him?

You must have missed the post where Leon said links to his site were not allowable on Net54.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by swarmee

You must have missed the post where Leon said links to his site were not allowable on Net54.

No link in the post.

John, I'd be willing to guess that Chris didn't see the thread, it's dropped pretty quickly -

Chris, here's a link to the post.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262689

[Jerry G]

T206Collector- Just a note to say that I admire your attitude under a very trying situation. You are an outstanding role model for our hobby. Keep your chin up. The Net54 hounds are on his trail! Man, these guys are determined!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So if I sell an expensive TPG graded card on ebay, and a year later the buyer cracks it out looking for a bump but it gets rejected, should he be able to come back to me and demand a refund?

On the grade I don't think so.
If it came back as fake, I'd think they could. Sort of like how someone stuck with something stolen has to go back to the person they got it from to get their money back instead of the person who stole it.

(Of course, I could be way off base legally, you'd know better than I would. )

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Jerry G

T206Collector- Just a note to say that I admire your attitude under a very trying situation. You are an outstanding role model for our hobby. Keep your chin up. The Net54 hounds are on his trail! Man, these guys are determined!

Thanks Jerry. I really appreciate the comments. I hope you’ll remember that you felt this way if I flip out about this down the road!

[Republicaninmass]

Sorry but

Sportscard Guarantee

Wtf is the guarantee if they are clearly wrong?

[t206kid]

Originally Posted by Jerry G

T206Collector- Just a note to say that I admire your attitude under a very trying situation. You are an outstanding role model for our hobby. Keep your chin up. The Net54 hounds are on his trail! Man, these guys are determined!

Agreed. Best customer service I've had in a problem situation. I can't wait for the dust to settle.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

On the grade I don't think so.
If it came back as fake, I'd think they could. Sort of like how someone stuck with something stolen has to go back to the person they got it from to get their money back instead of the person who stole it.

(Of course, I could be way off base legally, you'd know better than I would. )

Different. Stolen goods work the way they do because a seller of stolen goods cannot convey good title and the transaction is a nullity to begin with. If I sell you a card that turns out to be fake, in good faith, that's not a nullity from the outset. Of course we can debate the ethics of what should happen.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by steve B

On the grade I don't think so.
If it came back as fake, I'd think they could. Sort of like how someone stuck with something stolen has to go back to the person they got it from to get their money back instead of the person who stole it.

(Of course, I could be way off base legally, you'd know better than I would. )

No, because once it leaves the slab you lost the TPG guarantee. You can’t just stick it to a prior owner at that point.

[steve B]

Fair enough on both explanations.

I've always taken my attitude from the coin and stamp guy whose shop I hung out at in college. (Probably should have spent a bit less time there... )
He took back an altered coin several years after he'd sold it. It wasn't slabbed.
Basically it went like
"Hi, do you remember this coin? "
"Yeah, you got it from me a few years ago"
"Well I sent it in and it came back as altered"
looks with loupe "How the heck did I miss that? Yeah, it's altered. If I remember right you paid about X for it"
"It was a while ago, but that sounds about right"
"Ok, is a check ok or would you like cash?"


Since seeing that I've always been comfortable buying pretty much anything from him.

[vintagewhitesox]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

We have a strange, strange legal system, no doubt.

All depends on the states, the rules, the attorneys, how much money you have, your legal team, etc., etc., etc....

Saw an episode of American Greed the other day about the shoplifting Bogdanov family. They lifted literally millions of dollars worth of goods over several years, crossed state lines constantly to do their business and attracted the attention of federal authorities to conduct an investigation and prosecution that must have cost 100's of thousands of dollars itself.

Had fences everywhere and sold their crap on Ebay/Amazon for millions.

They got 4 years, 3 years and 15 months respectively.

Meanwhile there's a women in Texas with a resident card who thought that it entitled her to be able to vote that is serving 7 years, and there's probably 1000's of potheads throughout the entire country serving 20+ years or more for non-violent offenses, while most of the nation is finally coming to grips that it's more benign and medically worthwhile then most of the stuff that the pharmaceutical companies pump out to us legally (and I'm speaking as someone who's never partaken myself).

BTW is Coach's Corner still in business?

Unrelated to this thread, but to this post. I was responsible for the defendant who got 15 months. So I got that going for me, which is nice.

As for this whole mess, seems like Spence has lost most if not all credibility. I get missing one or 2, but this is an avalanche of fraud.
Ive always thought "autograph authenticators" were kind of a scam. No specialized training or schooling. just "looking at alot of autos." its a scam when the FBI does it, and when private companies do as well.

[Madi$on18joshua]

Originally Posted by Jerry G

T206Collector- Just a note to say that I admire your attitude under a very trying situation. You are an outstanding role model for our hobby. Keep your chin up. The Net54 hounds are on his trail! Man, these guys are determined!

+1 he is handling BEYOND amazing!!! It’s my hope you get your $$$ for all the bad ones and I am sure you will. IMO this will change the hobby of collecting t206 autos... I’d be scared to death to buy one now regardless of who authenticated it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Madi$on18joshua

+1 he is handling BEYOND amazing!!! It’s my hope you get your $$$ for all the bad ones and I am sure you will.

Thanks ...and the E98 you bought from me on eBay last night is in the mail!

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

do you really think most TPAs are spending 10min per item?

No, I don't. Which is what got them into this mess.

Originally Posted by Lordstan

What are their qualifications outside of having a big computer exemplar file?

That, sir, is a great question.