Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[Peter_Spaeth]

I presume law enforcement will take an active interest in this, and I presume the AHs will cooperate with law enforcement. I don't think we need a public outing to accomplish the goal here. It obviously isn't the AHs' fault.

[sb1]

Isn't it really as simple as finding out who submitted them for grading and who consigned them to the various auctions? If it's one and the same, seems pretty open and shut case. If not, perhaps a middle man or a private sale in between(which I doubt).

Seems like a couple of phone calls to the various entities would provide the answers.

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by sb1

Isn't it really as simple as finding out who submitted them for grading and who consigned them to the various auctions? If it's one and the same, seems pretty open and shut case. If not, perhaps a middle man or a private sale in between(which I doubt).

Seems like a couple of phone calls to the various entities would provide the answers.

Seems easy, but doubt Graders or Auction Houses will divulge that information. It's not going to be public information.

My hope is that they are already moving on that as we speak.

[sb1]

Perhaps they wouldn't release that information to the general public understandably, but might to one of the affected parties and most assuredly to legal authorities or demand letters, lest they wait for a court order or such. I can't imagine they would want to drag themselves through all that. It would be much easier to bring it all to light and start showing some signs of responsibility, which REA has by already refunding some parties.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Seems easy, but doubt Graders or Auction Houses will divulge that information. It's not going to be public information.

My hope is that they are already moving on that as we speak.

The AH and TPA MUST go to law enforcement. This has to be nipped now and the guilty party or parties must be prosecuted and imprisoned.

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

The AH and TPA MUST go to law enforcement. This has to be nipped now and the guilty party or parties must be prosecuted and imprisoned.

+1!!!

[RichardSimon]

If the money amount is high the FBI should be the LE contacted.

[TNP777]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

If the money amount is high the FBI should be the LE contacted.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...7&postcount=98

What remains to be seen is whether the consignor(s) of these cards -- and I believe Baker, Tannehill, Rucker, Parent, Sullivan and Conroy all came from the same consignor -- got the cards from the forger unknowingly/unwittingly, whether there were good ones mixed in with the bad ones, or whether they're all just fake regardless of whether the consignor was in on it. REA is in the process of trying to figure this out on his end, and Hunt has been contacted by interested collectors as well. SGC and REA have both indicated the FBI will be contacted.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by sb1

Isn't it really as simple as finding out who submitted them for grading and who consigned them to the various auctions? If it's one and the same, seems pretty open and shut case. If not, perhaps a middle man or a private sale in between(which I doubt).

Seems like a couple of phone calls to the various entities would provide the answers.

+1 I'm surprised Brian Dwyer has not chimed in

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It obviously isn't the AHs' fault.

I agree with this, to a point. I think there is a systemic problem with blindly trusting third party grading. It's far too easy for a seller, AH or otherwise, to hide behind the fact that it was given a green light by a "professional grader/authenticator" and try to wash their hands of all liability. IMO, if you accept money for something, regardless of where you are in the chain, you need to be at least partially responsible for its legitimacy.

I think it sort has been all along anyways, but certainly will be from now, for me to just assume an auto is fake until I have been convinced otherwise, which will now be pretty much impossible since that was the whole point of third party grading to begin with.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by conor912

I agree with this, to a point. I think there is a systemic problem with blindly trusting third party grading. It's far too easy for a seller, AH or otherwise, to hide behind the fact that it was given a green light by a "professional grader/authenticator" and try to wash their hands of all liability. IMO, if you accept money for something, regardless of where you are in the chain, you need to be at least partially responsible for its legitimacy.

I think it sort has been all along anyways, but certainly will be from now, for me to just assume an auto is fake until I have been convinced otherwise, which will now be pretty much impossible since that was the whole point of third party grading to begin with.

So if I sell an expensive TPG graded card on ebay, and a year later the buyer cracks it out looking for a bump but it gets rejected, should he be able to come back to me and demand a refund?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So if I sell an expensive TPG graded card on ebay, and a year later the buyer cracks it out looking for a bump but it gets rejected, should he be able to come back to me and demand a refund?

I more had autos in mind, but to your example, I'd say it depends on where the perceived value lies. Is the value in the card, or in the card in the slab? Obviously in most cases these days most of the value is in the latter. If they cracked it, then at that point they can no longer return to you the item which you sold them, which was the card in the slab - the moment they crack it out, it becomes a different product. At that point I wouldn't think they would be entitled to a refund from you and should go straight back to the TPG that originally graded it and sort it out with them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by conor912

I more had autos in mind, but to your example, I'd say it depends on where the perceived value lies. Is the value in the card, or in the card in the slab? Obviously in most cases these days most of the value is in the latter. If they cracked it, then at that point they can no longer return to you the item which you sold them, which was the card in the slab - the moment they crack it out, it becomes a different product. At that point I wouldn't think they would be entitled to a refund from you and should go straight back to the TPG that originally graded it and sort it out with them.

I think that's right. But suppose I, a non-expert, sell a slabbed autograph card. A year later, information comes out that the TPG made a mistake and in fact the auto is a fake. Why am I on the hook a year later for someone else's fraud (the forger's) and the TPG's mistake?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think that's right. But suppose I, a non-expert, sell a slabbed autograph card. A year later, information comes out that the TPG made a mistake and in fact the auto is a fake. Why am I on the hook a year later for someone else's fraud (the forger's) and the TPG's mistake?

Because when you were the buyer of said card (assuming you bought it and weren't the one to have it slabbed), the onus was on you to do your due diligence before buying it. You felt like you shouldn't have had to because it was slabbed (which is of course the whole point of slabbing), but clearly that notion is wrong.... and now as the seller of said card, your lack of that due diligence shouldn't just get transferred to the next buyer and leave you off the hook. It's impossible to assign a percentage of responsibility to each party in this scenario, but to hide behind ignorance and a slab just feels dirty to me. That's how I feel, anyway.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by conor912

Because when you were the buyer of said card (assuming you bought it and weren't the one to have it slabbed), the onus was on you to do your due diligence before buying it. You felt like you shouldn't have had to because it was slabbed (which is of course the whole point of slabbing), but clearly that notion is wrong.... and now as the seller of said card, your lack of that due diligence shouldn't just get transferred to the next buyer and leave you off the hook. It's impossible to assign a percentage of responsibility to each party in this scenario, but to hide behind ignorance and a slab just feels dirty to me. That's how I feel, anyway.

I understand and respect that perspective, but I don't think it's realistic or fair. The buyer is buying the TPG's opinion, not mine, or so I believe.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think that's right. But suppose I, a non-expert, sell a slabbed autograph card. A year later, information comes out that the TPG made a mistake and in fact the auto is a fake. Why am I on the hook a year later for someone else's fraud (the forger's) and the TPG's mistake?

I think the answer to your question is that you profited from the sale of the card, the TPA did not. Why should any seller be able to keep profits from a card, or any item for that matter, that was not as described? While it is not your fault for making the auto bad, the seller still profits. To me, it seems the seller would refund the buyer and then try to get a refund from the person they bought it from and so on.
I asked this type of question in another thread. Being that TPAs are promoting their service as much to enhance the value of an item, as they are to provide confidence in authenticity of said item, what obligation do they have to any one person in the buyer-seller transaction realm with regards to the change in value of the item? I don't know the legal answer to that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I think the answer to your question is that you profited from the sale of the card, the TPA did not. Why should any seller be able to keep profits from a card, or any item for that matter, that was not as described? While it is not your fault for making the auto bad, the seller still profits. To me, it seems the seller would refund the buyer and then try to get a refund from the person they bought it from and so on.
I asked this type of question in another thread. Being that TPAs are promoting their service as much to enhance the value of an item, as they are to provide confidence in authenticity of said item, what obligation do they have to any one person in the buyer-seller transaction realm with regards to the change in value of the item? I don't know the legal answer to that.

In my case, more likely I lost money than profited. And arguably the item is as described -- a card authenticated by whichever TPG. I would have no issue taking back a card within a reasonable window for whatever reason even a bad one, but I'm not sure it's fair to keep a seller on the hook for a year, two years, whatever in the case of a TPG card.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So if I sell an expensive TPG graded card on ebay, and a year later the buyer cracks it out looking for a bump but it gets rejected, should he be able to come back to me and demand a refund?

On the grade I don't think so.
If it came back as fake, I'd think they could. Sort of like how someone stuck with something stolen has to go back to the person they got it from to get their money back instead of the person who stole it.

(Of course, I could be way off base legally, you'd know better than I would. )

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

On the grade I don't think so.
If it came back as fake, I'd think they could. Sort of like how someone stuck with something stolen has to go back to the person they got it from to get their money back instead of the person who stole it.

(Of course, I could be way off base legally, you'd know better than I would. )

Different. Stolen goods work the way they do because a seller of stolen goods cannot convey good title and the transaction is a nullity to begin with. If I sell you a card that turns out to be fake, in good faith, that's not a nullity from the outset. Of course we can debate the ethics of what should happen.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by steve B

On the grade I don't think so.
If it came back as fake, I'd think they could. Sort of like how someone stuck with something stolen has to go back to the person they got it from to get their money back instead of the person who stole it.

(Of course, I could be way off base legally, you'd know better than I would. )

No, because once it leaves the slab you lost the TPG guarantee. You can’t just stick it to a prior owner at that point.

[steve B]

Fair enough on both explanations.

I've always taken my attitude from the coin and stamp guy whose shop I hung out at in college. (Probably should have spent a bit less time there... )
He took back an altered coin several years after he'd sold it. It wasn't slabbed.
Basically it went like
"Hi, do you remember this coin? "
"Yeah, you got it from me a few years ago"
"Well I sent it in and it came back as altered"
looks with loupe "How the heck did I miss that? Yeah, it's altered. If I remember right you paid about X for it"
"It was a while ago, but that sounds about right"
"Ok, is a check ok or would you like cash?"


Since seeing that I've always been comfortable buying pretty much anything from him.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I presume law enforcement will take an active interest in this, and I presume the AHs will cooperate with law enforcement. I don't think we need a public outing to accomplish the goal here. It obviously isn't the AHs' fault.

The public outing will occur in time. The walls should close in quickly if it's a sole perp. You have to get the feeling the asshole has probably figured out by now that their scheme is now exposed. Let's just hope that butthead doesn't screw over any more people that don't realize what's happening.

[jchcollins]

I generally don't even do pre-war, but this type of crap is precisely why I have never seriously been interested in collecting autos.

[Duluth Eskimo]

There’s just as much card doctoring with 50’s and newer cards as well.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Fred

The public outing will occur in time. The walls should close in quickly if it's a sole perp. You have to get the feeling the asshole has probably figured out by now that their scheme is now exposed. Let's just hope that butthead doesn't screw over any more people that don't realize what's happening.

....or has already bought a plane ticket to Costa Rica.