Wen is enough PSA Shame on you!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

The very fact that they have long delays is proof of their success. People are submitting in record numbers. Like Yogi said, nobody goes there any more, it's too crowded. Barring an epic scandal, IMO PSA will continue to dominate the industry.

[swarmee]

PSA can get away with a bunch of errors because they fix them for free, including shipping both ways. They also have a lot more errors because their volume dwarfs that of SGC nowadays. But if you point them out, they'll hang their hat, accept blame, and get it corrected. Half the stuff that gets pointed out happened 15 years ago. All grading companies make mistakes.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

PSA can get away with a bunch of errors because they fix them for free, including shipping both ways. They also have a lot more errors because their volume dwarfs that of SGC nowadays. But if you point them out, they'll hang their hat, accept blame, and get it corrected. Half the stuff that gets pointed out happened 15 years ago. All grading companies make mistakes.

Funny stuff! When are they going to correct Cert # 00000001?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Funny stuff! When are they going to correct Cert # 00000001?

On the 13th of never.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Funny stuff! When are they going to correct Cert # 00000001?

Amen. People at a minimum should realize that the very first card they ever graded was a disaster. If that card had been in an "A" slab what would it have sold for? PSA is ostensibly the authentication and grading "experts." Yet when asked why that was not caught, David Hall of PSA's explanation? "It doesn't look trimmed to me." Seriously? WTF!?! Nice detailed "expert" explanation.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Funny stuff! When are they going to correct Cert # 00000001?

When the owner sends it in.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

When the owner sends it in.

That's just it though, the owner does not have to send it in to be corrected on PSA's end. I have seen (many times) where PSA made a mistake on the label and the owner refuses to send the card in and PSA either corrects it in their database or removes the card from their database. Why can't PSA do it with this one?

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That's just it though, the owner does not have to send it in to be corrected on PSA's end. I have seen (many times) where PSA made a mistake on the label and the owner refuses to send the card in and PSA either corrects it in their database or removes the card from their database. Why can't PSA do it with this one?

Because to do so in this particular case would be front page hobby news, and would create nothing but negative publicity for PSA. Some might give them credit for being "honest" after all this time, sure - but it would re-ignite the whole debate again and they don't want that. This was almost the perfect storm: Yes, they screwed up on the very first card they ever put in a slab - but it just happened to be the single most famous and expensive card in the entire hobby - and even in the $hitstorm that eventually ensued - the card did not lose value. Not by a long shot.

Personally, I believe that PSA would have had a lot more trouble had the story about Bill Mastro come out at the time of the Gretzky-McNall sale, or shortly thereafter in the months that followed. But it didn't - took years and even decades I think before that was all later proven. So yeah, we now have proof based on what they got off a wire I believe from jailbird Mastro and what he admitted to doing - but PSA sheepishly still stands by tongue-in-cheek claiming that the card is a PSA 8 and not an A. Whatever, I get it. It's the perfect storm because this card is an anomaly if there ever was one. Even if trimmed it's still going to be worth millions of dollars because of the publicity and the controversy. Even if trimmed, it's easily the most eye-appealing copy of the Wagner card known to the hobby.

So bottom line, PSA got lucky. Is it a fair question theoretically why they haven't gone and updated the grade in the database? Of course. But realistically? Not in a million years...

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Because to do so in this particular case would be front page hobby news, and would create nothing but negative publicity for PSA. Some might give them credit for being "honest" after all this time, sure - but it would re-ignite the whole debate again and they don't want that. This was almost the perfect storm: Yes, they screwed up on the very first card they ever put in a slab - but it just happened to be the single most famous and expensive card in the entire hobby - and even in the $hitstorm that eventually ensued - the card did not lose value. Not by a long shot.

Personally, I believe that PSA would have had a lot more trouble had the story about Bill Mastro come out at the time of the Gretzky-McNall sale, or shortly thereafter in the months that followed. But it didn't - took years and even decades I think before that was all later proven. So yeah, we now have proof based on what they got off a wire I believe from jailbird Mastro and what he admitted to doing - but PSA sheepishly still stands by tongue-in-cheek claiming that the card is a PSA 8 and not an A. Whatever, I get it. It's the perfect storm because this card is an anomaly if there ever was one. Even if trimmed it's still going to be worth millions of dollars because of the publicity and the controversy. Even if trimmed, it's easily the most eye-appealing copy of the Wagner card known to the hobby.

So bottom line, PSA got lucky. Is it a fair question theoretically why they haven't gone and updated the grade in the database? Of course. But realistically? Not in a million years...

Understood, I just thought what John said was amusing, "But if you point them out, they'll hang their hat, accept blame, and get it corrected." I have never, ever, ever, ever seen PSA admit blame...never, ever, ever for anything. Sure they may fix their mistake at no cost, cover shipping both ways, etc., but I have watched time after time, year after year PSA try to sweep anything negative under the rug. To say they hang their hat and accept blame is laughable.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That's just it though, the owner does not have to send it in to be corrected on PSA's end. I have seen (many times) where PSA made a mistake on the label and the owner refuses to send the card in and PSA either corrects it in their database or removes the card from their database. Why can't PSA do it with this one?

And yet in your other post you are screaming at PSA for not correcting their mistakes. A bit inconsistent, no?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And yet in your other post you are screaming at PSA for not correcting their mistakes. A bit inconsistent, no?

Huh? What are you talking about? I've always said PSA should correct their mistakes. I'm saying it here too. Where did I say otherwise???

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The very fact that they have long delays is proof of their success. People are submitting in record numbers. Like Yogi said, nobody goes there any more, it's too crowded. Barring an epic scandal, IMO PSA will continue to dominate the industry.

From an economic standpoint that's true. That being said, my personal opinion is that PSA is about 60% hype, 40% service. I think they are overrated for what they do. Granted the reality of the situation is that assigning hard grades in a process that by it's nature will never be anything but subjective is a tall order. The trick is convincing people you do it well. Clearly, PSA still has the majority of their customers convinced. Just not me.

[ALR-bishop]

While I do not collect graded stuff I fully get the allure and draw of the Registry to many collectors. But if the market is big enough ( do not know if it really is ) then history would indicate some well financed major competitor at some point will give it a go.

[Promethius88]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

While I do not collect graded stuff I fully get the allure and draw of the Registry to many collectors. But if the market is big enough ( do not know if it really is ) then history would indicate some well financed major competitor at some point will give it a go.

Biggest problem I see with this scenario is that there is already tens of millions of dollars invested in grading with PSA. Getting someone to crossover tons of cards, complete set collectors for example, is going to just be too expensive imo. Now, I could see it over a long period of time if said company was so much better and more cost effective and everyone started to gravitate there as sets are broken down and sold off.

As far as the love/hate with tpg, I believe it has been very educational. While we know that the pop reports are not accurate, for myself, it has still been eye opening over the years. My example, maybe 15 years ago I started on a quest to build a PSA 8 70-71 Topps basketball set as I couldn't afford the 69's in that grade and I really like the tallboys. Well, when you are putting together a raw set, you may know the short prints that are a little more difficult or certain common cards that might be a little more difficult to find but you will settle for something that is lower grade because it is not a superstar. But what hit me, and my wallet, was finding that some of these cards were virtually impossible to find in high grade, centered, no print dots, etc. This is something that the experienced collector might know that has been collecting a certain set for years but not someone new to either the hobby or a particular series. While it's not exact, it's still a pretty good reference, even if you only collect raw, to know what obstacles you might face collecting a particular card or set.
Anyhow, that's just my opinion. Good discussion and happy collecting to all!
Tim

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Promethius88

Biggest problem I see with this scenario is that there is already tens of millions of dollars invested in grading with PSA. Getting someone to crossover tons of cards, complete set collectors for example, is going to just be too expensive imo. Now, I could see it over a long period of time if said company was so much better and more cost effective and everyone started to gravitate there as sets are broken down and sold off.

As far as the love/hate with tpg, I believe it has been very educational. While we know that the pop reports are not accurate, for myself, it has still been eye opening over the years. My example, maybe 15 years ago I started on a quest to build a PSA 8 70-71 Topps basketball set as I couldn't afford the 69's in that grade and I really like the tallboys. Well, when you are putting together a raw set, you may know the short prints that are a little more difficult or certain common cards that might be a little more difficult to find but you will settle for something that is lower grade because it is not a superstar. But what hit me, and my wallet, was finding that some of these cards were virtually impossible to find in high grade, centered, no print dots, etc. This is something that the experienced collector might know that has been collecting a certain set for years but not someone new to either the hobby or a particular series. While it's not exact, it's still a pretty good reference, even if you only collect raw, to know what obstacles you might face collecting a particular card or set.
Anyhow, that's just my opinion. Good discussion and happy collecting to all!
Tim

Agreed it has been educational. Again, I'm not totally against TPG's, I just think there is still a lot of room for improvement.