Ashamed - Topps T206 Buy Back Fraud

[showtime]

Originally Posted by Leon

He bought an altered card and is selling it with no mention after he cracked it out. That has to be some kind of wrongdoing. What a maroon..

The second one shown right above doesn't bother me as much as the somewhat fraudulent one where he knows it's altered and not mentioning it. A lot of the cards we own have been soaked whether we know it or not. It's not a big deal to me on that....to others it is a big deal.

He is denying that this is what he is doing after I asked through ebay messaging. Not surprised. He even went as far as to say ask Leon about me. A crook is a crook.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by showtime

He is denying that this is what he is doing after I asked through ebay messaging. Not surprised. He even went as far as to say ask Leon about me. A crook is a crook.

He just keeps on cheating people and lying about it. If it was pwcc or
probstein doing the things he's done the responses would rival Franks monster thread.

[albrshbr]

He changed the post description. He now says the card is trimmed

[RedsFan1941]

stand up guy

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by albrshbr

He changed the post description. He now says the card is trimmed

That's more than I can say for some guys on the board who push trimmed cards in non-SGC, PSA, Beckett holders and claim they "just don't want to break them out because there's too much risk."

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by calvindog

That's more than I can say for some guys on the board who push trimmed cards in non-SGC, PSA, Beckett holders and claim they "just don't want to break them out because there's too much risk."

No doubt. But what about trimmed cards that do reside in PSA, SGC, and BVG holders? Does the fact that they made it into the holder of a reputable TPG absolve the seller from disclosing that the card is trimmed/tampered with?

A while back I bought a very high end t206 HOFer with a rare back from a "well respected" broker. The card sat in a BVG flip. Once I received it, in person, it looked a bit short to me. I tried to to cross it to SGC and they would not give it the minimum requested grade of 80 (6) (a down grade), so it was returned to me in the BVG flip. I brought it to several shows and many t206 old timers and some auction houses all said the same thing - "it must stay in this holder", which I took as code that the card was trimmed (none directly said it was trimmed). I grew to despise the card but I could not bring myself to try to sell it without disclosing my experiences - even though it sat plain as day in a BVG flip- which would have resulted in me taking a massive loss. So I ended up contacting the broker who did accept my offer to repurchase it for $2500 less than I bought it from him for. I was happy to take the loss and glad to be rid of that card. All that said, I could have consigned it to an eBay or smaller auction house or sold it myself and merely advertised it as a BVG graded card.... Would that have been wrong? Caveat emptor?

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

No doubt. But what about trimmed cards that do reside in PSA, SGC, and BVG holders? Does the fact that they made it into the holder of a reputable TPG absolve the seller from disclosing that the card is trimmed/tampered with?

A while back I bought a very high end t206 HOFer with a rare back from a "well respected" broker. The card sat in a BVG flip. Once I received it, in person, it looked a bit short to me. I tried to to cross it to SGC and they would not give it the minimum requested grade of 80 (6) (a down grade), so it was returned to me in the BVG flip. I brought it to several shows and many t206 old timers and some auction houses all said the same thing - "it must stay in this holder", which I took as code that the card was trimmed (none directly said it was trimmed). I grew to despise the card but I could not bring myself to try to sell it without disclosing my experiences - even though it sat plain as day in a BVG flip- which would have resulted in me taking a massive loss. So I ended up contacting the broker who did accept my offer to repurchase it for $2500 less than I bought it from him for. I was happy to take the loss and glad to be rid of that card. All that said, I could have consigned it to an eBay or smaller auction house or sold it myself and merely advertised it as a BVG graded card.... Would that have been wrong? Caveat emptor?

This story stinks......that dealer is a POS. Post him name so I can not buy anything from him.

[iwantitiwinit]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

No doubt. But what about trimmed cards that do reside in PSA, SGC, and BVG holders? Does the fact that they made it into the holder of a reputable TPG absolve the seller from disclosing that the card is trimmed/tampered with?

A while back I bought a very high end t206 HOFer with a rare back from a "well respected" broker. The card sat in a BVG flip. Once I received it, in person, it looked a bit short to me. I tried to to cross it to SGC and they would not give it the minimum requested grade of 80 (6) (a down grade), so it was returned to me in the BVG flip. I brought it to several shows and many t206 old timers and some auction houses all said the same thing - "it must stay in this holder", which I took as code that the card was trimmed (none directly said it was trimmed). I grew to despise the card but I could not bring myself to try to sell it without disclosing my experiences - even though it sat plain as day in a BVG flip- which would have resulted in me taking a massive loss. So I ended up contacting the broker who did accept my offer to repurchase it for $2500 less than I bought it from him for. I was happy to take the loss and glad to be rid of that card. All that said, I could have consigned it to an eBay or smaller auction house or sold it myself and merely advertised it as a BVG graded card.... Would that have been wrong? Caveat emptor?

It would be interesting to see if that broker re-offered it and at what price and with what description.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

It would be interesting to see if that broker re-offered it and at what price and with what description.

At a $2,500 discount, he can sub it to PWCC and not think twice about it.

[Gradedcardman]

Is it still not up to us as the buyers to inspect these cards ? I bought a Chappie Charles BVG 7 at a National knowing full well that this was a $600 gamble. The gamble did not payoff. I cracked it and re-subbed as my experience when sending with the slab was not good. Live and learn. This is not a business of collectors selling to collectors anymore. You have to be the one that polices your buys.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

No doubt. But what about trimmed cards that do reside in PSA, SGC, and BVG holders? Does the fact that they made it into the holder of a reputable TPG absolve the seller from disclosing that the card is trimmed/tampered with?

A while back I bought a very high end t206 HOFer with a rare back from a "well respected" broker. The card sat in a BVG flip. Once I received it, in person, it looked a bit short to me. I tried to to cross it to SGC and they would not give it the minimum requested grade of 80 (6) (a down grade), so it was returned to me in the BVG flip. I brought it to several shows and many t206 old timers and some auction houses all said the same thing - "it must stay in this holder", which I took as code that the card was trimmed (none directly said it was trimmed). I grew to despise the card but I could not bring myself to try to sell it without disclosing my experiences - even though it sat plain as day in a BVG flip- which would have resulted in me taking a massive loss. So I ended up contacting the broker who did accept my offer to repurchase it for $2500 less than I bought it from him for. I was happy to take the loss and glad to be rid of that card. All that said, I could have consigned it to an eBay or smaller auction house or sold it myself and merely advertised it as a BVG graded card.... Would that have been wrong? Caveat emptor?

We've debated this before. I think for the most part people think there is no affirmative obligation to disclose grading history.

[drcy]

If you know something is bad, you can't reoffer it as authentic or unaltered no matter what its 'pedigree.' However, I don't doubt that when a card is in a holder it's harder to see all the qualities and details and many sellers aren't experts and reasonably defer to graders and TPAs.

Though, in the long run, it's good for your business if people know you're the type of seller who will point out when TPAs and graders have made mistakes on items you are selling.

My belief is, even if an item is in a holder or comes with a LOA (such as with an autograph or piece of memorabilia), the seller is responsible to the buyer for the authenticity and correct identification. Other than obviously blatant errors, the condition grade on a holdered card is a different thing, as that's a matter of opinion and the seller can't properly grade a card when it's in a holder. Some alteration no doubt will be hidden in a holder too, so that can also be a different situation.

I remember a number of years ago, an eBay seller was offering a rare and desirable "Leaf 'Hermansk'" error card (Hermanski missing a letter)." It was more than obviously simply a label error, as anyone with more than zero eyes saw that the card said "Hermanski" not "Hermansk." But the seller, who had to know the card was not the error, was selling it as the error card because that's what the label said. This is a blatant example of where the seller has to say what the item really is and point out that the grader or authenticator is in error.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by showtime

He is denying that this is what he is doing after I asked through ebay messaging. Not surprised. He even went as far as to say ask Leon about me. A crook is a crook.

Sorry I don't catch your last name. Any chance you could throw that up there

[Leon]

Originally Posted by showtime

He is denying that this is what he is doing after I asked through ebay messaging. Not surprised. He even went as far as to say ask Leon about me. A crook is a crook.

You are welcome to call him, or anyone, a crook but your full name needs to be in your post per the rules. thanks