1949 Jackies on Memory Lane

[WWG]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Still the Leaf cards of equal grade go for more than the bowman. i guess its the prime rookie card is leaf....

I would agree the Leaf goes for a lot more and SMR even labels it as (R) Rookie, not the Bowman

1948 Leaf
1948 Leaf.jpg

1949 Bowman
1949 Bowman.jpg

It's only his rookie if you ignore the Bond Breads

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

I think the question of which of Jackie's cards is his true RC is an intriguing question worthy of debate. There's been a ton of research that has taken place by board members discussing the issue and to me it's either the 1947 Bond Bread Robinson portrait (white border) with facsimile auto, which I think most agree was a promo card or the 1947 D302 Bond Bread with cropped corners. There's absolutely no question both of these (along with the white bordered 12-card Jackie set) pre-date both the 1948 Leaf (actually produced in 1949) and the 1949 Bowman, but I don't think a consensus has been reached to date regarding which was Jackie's absolute first card. Pretty amazing considering the player and his impact on modern day sports and civil rights, much less baseball.

I thought that it was determined that the 12 card set was later as some of the photos used were taken in 1949. If you consider regionals as rookie cards than the two Bond Bread cards you mentioned would be Rookie Cards.

The traditional hobby definition is a national release and that would be the 1949 Bowman or Leaf. SMR and PSA are in the dark ages on the 1949 Leaf set. We have collectors who bought the cards in 1949 as well as documentation from early hobby publications that support that. As well as common sense, as most of the cards contain stats from the 1948 season, the Robinson card even carries a 1949 copyright.

Originally Posted by rats60

I thought that it was determined that the 12 card set was later as some of the photos used were taken in 1949. If you consider regionals as rookie cards than the two Bond Bread cards you mentioned would be Rookie Cards.

The traditional hobby definition is a national release and that would be the 1949 Bowman or Leaf. SMR and PSA are in the dark ages on the 1949 Leaf set. We have collectors who bought the cards in 1949 as well as documentation from early hobby publications that support that. As well as common sense, as most of the cards contain stats from the 1948 season, the Robinson card even carries a 1949 copyright.

Yes, you are right. It's been pretty well documented that several of the 12 card set were produced after 1947, I should not have lumped all of them into the same category as the Portrait with facsimile autograph and the D302 with cropped corners. The regional vs. national question aside, its difficult for me not to view either, or at least one, of the 1947 Bond Breads as his true RC considering they both pre-date the Bowman and the Leaf by at least a full year. Factor in their relative scarcity (just over 100 graded Portrait with facsimile between SGC/PSA, not sure of the exact number on the D302 cropped corners) the argument could certainly be made that they are two of the more undervalued cards in the hobby.

[CharleyBrown]

Originally Posted by rats60

I thought that it was determined that the 12 card set was later as some of the photos used were taken in 1949. If you consider regionals as rookie cards than the two Bond Bread cards you mentioned would be Rookie Cards.

The traditional hobby definition is a national release and that would be the 1949 Bowman or Leaf. SMR and PSA are in the dark ages on the 1949 Leaf set. We have collectors who bought the cards in 1949 as well as documentation from early hobby publications that support that. As well as common sense, as most of the cards contain stats from the 1948 season, the Robinson card even carries a 1949 copyright.

The portrait-facsimile signature card was produced and distributed in the summer of 1947. Only 6 of the cards were produced and distributed in 1949. The other 6 between 1947 and 1948. The Old Gold card was also produced and distributed in 1947, though after the Bond Bread card.

I don't understand the regional label for the Bond Bread cards. They were distributed in Montreal, Detroit, Baltimore, DC, St. Louis, NYC, and surrounding suburbs with a moderately sized African American population. Clearly they did not have the production numbers of Bowman or Leaf, but from rough estimates, at least 1 million portrait-facsimile cards were distributed in 1947.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by CharleyBrown

I don't understand the regional label for the Bond Bread cards. They were distributed in Montreal, Detroit, Baltimore, DC, St. Louis, NYC, and surrounding suburbs with a moderately sized African American population. Clearly they did not have the production numbers of Bowman or Leaf, but from rough estimates, at least 1 million portrait-facsimile cards were distributed in 1947.

So the cards weren't available in 3 of the 4 or 5 most populous cities in the country and you wonder why they are a regional set?

Originally Posted by rats60

So the cards weren't available in 3 of the 4 or 5 most populous cities in the country and you wonder why they are a regional set?

Their distribution was multi-regional I think is the point. The Bond Bread shouldn't be overlooked as his true RC just because of the low pop, comparative value to the Topps/Leaf, or because a price guide or third party grading company labels it as such. It's like arguing the 1952 Topps is Mantle's RC

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

It's only his rookie if you ignore the Bond Breads

Given that enough time has passed with seasoned hobbyists and the facts the Leaf is clearly the most valuable, we can put whatever labels we want but people will ignore claimed 'rookie' cards that go for less. Whatever goes for the most money is the true rookie when looking to break and arguable tie.

So its easy to ignore. Like ignoring the 1951 bowman mantle versus the topps 52. What would of been interesting is if Mantle starting playing a year earlier and there was a 1950 or 1949 card out there for mantle as a RC and also the 1952 Topps rookie. Its easier to stomach a 1952 topps 'rookie' because its only a year away from 1951. Yes Leaf can be considered a 1949..but its labeled a 1948 and yet again, only a year away from 1949 bowman. When its a 2 year difference..its hard to stomach

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

Their distribution was multi-regional I think is the point. The Bond Bread shouldn't be overlooked as his true RC just because of the low pop, comparative value to the Topps/Leaf, or because a price guide or third party grading company labels it as such. It's like arguing the 1952 Topps is Mantle's RC

No it isn't. Bowman was available in all major markets in 1951. The requirement for a rookie card has always been that it be a national release. Missing 3 of the top 4 or 5 markets is not a national release.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

No it isn't. Bowman was available in all major markets in 1951. The requirement for a rookie card has always been that it be a national release. Missing 3 of the top 4 or 5 markets is not a national release.

Maybe that's a Beckett guide "requirement" but I don't think otherwise there is any consensus that national distribution is necessary to call a card a rookie. Lots of discussions here suggest many guys think otherwise.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Given that enough time has passed with seasoned hobbyists and the facts the Leaf is clearly the most valuable, we can put whatever labels we want but people will ignore claimed 'rookie' cards that go for less. Whatever goes for the most money is the true rookie when looking to break and arguable tie.

So its easy to ignore. Like ignoring the 1951 bowman mantle versus the topps 52. What would of been interesting is if Mantle starting playing a year earlier and there was a 1950 or 1949 card out there for mantle as a RC and also the 1952 Topps rookie. Its easier to stomach a 1952 topps 'rookie' because its only a year away from 1951. Yes Leaf can be considered a 1949..but its labeled a 1948 and yet again, only a year away from 1949 bowman. When its a 2 year difference..its hard to stomach

I don't think anyone inside our hobby considers the 52 Mantle a rookie card. I do see it described as a rookie when I see articles written about new finds or big sales by those who don't collect.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe that's a Beckett guide "requirement" but I don't think otherwise there is any consensus that national distribution is necessary to call a card a rookie. Lots of discussions here suggest many guys think otherwise.

It has been since the 70s when people started recognizing rookie cards. I know many here collect prewar cards and have adopted various other definitions to fit what they collect. Not having national distribution defeats the purpose of rookie cards in my opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I don't think anyone inside our hobby considers the 52 Mantle a rookie card. I do see it described as a rookie when I see articles written about new finds or big sales by those who don't collect.

SGC does.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

It has been since the 70s when people started recognizing rookie cards. I know many here collect prewar cards and have adopted various other definitions to fit what they collect. Not having national distribution defeats the purpose of rookie cards in my opinion.

It's a legitimate point of view, but not a consensus one.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

SGC does.

I suppose that puts their hobby knowledge on par with their hobby relevance these days.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I suppose that puts their hobby knowledge on par with their hobby relevance these days.

I have never understood that designation on their flips. Obviously Dave Forman and everyone else there know it's not his RC.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have never understood that designation on their flips. Obviously Dave Forman and everyone else there know it's not his RC.

I used to own an SGC graded 52 Mantle and didn't remember that. Had to dig through some old scans.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jesse, it's on every one I have ever seen.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's a legitimate point of view, but not a consensus one.

Only when it comes to older releases. What regional is being hyped as Aaron Judge's RC? Check sold listings on ebay. Highest prices, recent sold, it's mostly Topps with a few Panini, no regional issues. The last 35+ years I have never seen a current regional set taken seriously as a rookie card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Only when it comes to older releases. What regional is being hyped as Aaron Judge's RC? Check sold listings on ebay. Highest prices, recent sold, it's mostly Topps with a few Panini, no regional issues. The last 35+ years I have never seen a current regional set taken seriously as a rookie card.

That may be because there aren't any? Suppose Clemente had been in 1954 Red Heart or Wilson Franks. You don't think anyone would be arguing that was his rookie?

Originally Posted by rats60

No it isn't. Bowman was available in all major markets in 1951. The requirement for a rookie card has always been that it be a national release. Missing 3 of the top 4 or 5 markets is not a national release.

You'll have to show me that in the official rulebook of collecting because I'm not aware any such consensus, although I do respect that point of view. In the meantime, good luck trying to convince the owner of a 1914 Baltimore News Ruth that it isn't his RC

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

In the meantime, good luck trying to convince the owner of a 1915 Baltimore News Ruth that it isn't his RC.

Not to split hairs, but I think that most collectors consider Ruth's 1914 Baltimore News card his pre-rookie since it was issued when he was in the Minor Leagues. Same goes for DiMaggio's 1934 Zeenut card.

[WWG]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

You'll have to show me that in the official rulebook of collecting because I'm not aware any such consensus, although I do respect that point of view. In the meantime, good luck trying to convince the owner of a 1915 Baltimore News Ruth that it isn't his RC.

1915 Sporting News?

Originally Posted by WWG

1915 Sporting News?

Yeah, unless you own the Baltimore News

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities

Not to split hairs, but I think that most collectors consider Ruth's 1914 Baltimore News card his pre-rookie since it was issued when he was in the Minor Leagues. Same goes for DiMaggio's 1934 Zeenut card.

Or XRC as Beckett use to refer to them

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by WWG

1915 Sporting News?

1914 Baltimore News

1916 M101-5/4 Felix Mendolsohn/Sporting News

[WWG]

Originally Posted by baseball rarities

1914 baltimore news

1916 m101-5/4 felix mendolsohn/sporting news

1915/16 m101-5 sporting news

1915-m101-5-sporting-news-babe-ruth-57125.jpg

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeah, there is some definite confusion about the date of that issue, I am sure we have discussed it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

Or XRC as Beckett use to refer to them

As applied to major league nationally distributed sets like the Fleer Update Clemens, and Topps Traded Bonds, that was really stupid, in my opinion. And of course the flip side was they were calling second year cards RCs.

[CharleyBrown]

Originally Posted by rats60

So the cards weren't available in 3 of the 4 or 5 most populous cities in the country and you wonder why they are a regional set?

I didn't list all the cities where they were available / distributed.

1940 top 13 U.S. cities
1. NY
2. Chicago
3. Philadelphia
4. Los Angeles
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. San Francisco
8. Pittsburgh
9. St. Louis
10. Cleveland
11. Baltimore
12. Minneapolis
13. Washington DC

1950 top 13 U.S. cities
1. NY
2. Chicago
3. Los Angeles
4. Philadelphia
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. San Francisco
8. St. Louis
9. Cleveland
10. Pittsburgh
11. Washington DC
12. Baltimore
13. Minneapolis

I've confirmed that the Bond Bread set of 13 was distributed in NY, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Washington DC, and Baltimore.

There were no MLB teams on the west coast in 1947, so I don't think it's unfair to take out LA and SF. I am actively looking into Boston and Cleveland, though I wouldn't be surprised if the cards were distributed there as well. Not sure on Minneapolis, but I would look into it..

That means that the set was distributed between 1947 and 1949 in 8 of the top 13 cities... possibly 10-11. That also doesn't include Montreal, where the cards were also distributed.

As I mentioned, it was well distributed, far more so than originally known. The low pop numbers are not representative of the number of cards distributed, but rather it can be said that 1) people didn't hold onto the cards or 2) the cards still in existence are in the hands of people that aren't active collectors. I think it could be a little bit of both.

My last purchase of two Bond Bread cards came from the daughter-in-law of a woman who was given the cards by a young gentleman that meant the world to her... both individuals never traveled outside the Detroit area. They were kept in a piano bench, and were the only sports collectibles she had.

[BeanTown]

Pre Rookie

Originally Posted by CharleyBrown

I didn't list all the cities where they were available / distributed.

1940 top 13 U.S. cities
1. NY
2. Chicago
3. Philadelphia
4. Los Angeles
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. San Francisco
8. Pittsburgh
9. St. Louis
10. Cleveland
11. Baltimore
12. Minneapolis
13. Washington DC

1950 top 13 U.S. cities
1. NY
2. Chicago
3. Los Angeles
4. Philadelphia
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. San Francisco
8. St. Louis
9. Cleveland
10. Pittsburgh
11. Washington DC
12. Baltimore
13. Minneapolis

I've confirmed that the Bond Bread set of 13 was distributed in NY, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Washington DC, and Baltimore.

There were no MLB teams on the west coast in 1947, so I don't think it's unfair to take out LA and SF. I am actively looking into Boston and Cleveland, though I wouldn't be surprised if the cards were distributed there as well. Not sure on Minneapolis, but I would look into it..

That means that the set was distributed between 1947 and 1949 in 8 of the top 13 cities... possibly 10-11. That also doesn't include Montreal, where the cards were also distributed.

As I mentioned, it was well distributed, far more so than originally known. The low pop numbers are not representative of the number of cards distributed, but rather it can be said that 1) people didn't hold onto the cards or 2) the cards still in existence are in the hands of people that aren't active collectors. I think it could be a little bit of both.

My last purchase of two Bond Bread cards came from the daughter-in-law of a woman who was given the cards by a young gentleman that meant the world to her... both individuals never traveled outside the Detroit area. They were kept in a piano bench, and were the only sports collectibles she had.

So um, yeah. The 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Portrait is his true RC as far as I'm concerned. Others may disagree and that's fine. Thanks for sharing this knowledge Shaun.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

This thread has been great. I didn't know much about the 47 Bond Bread issue. It looks like the portrait was issued along with 12 other cards in a sub set? There also seems to be two different Jackie cards in the regular 1947 set (one with clipped corners and one without)? Interested to know why some consider the white border portrait his RC and not the others issued in the sub set or the regular portrait card in the set?

edited to add - I'm wondering if the large number of Jackie cards in this set and sub set has added to lack of demand and depression on pricing. Or is this card(s) ready to see an Exhibit Gehrig take off?

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by WWG

1915/16 m101-5 sporting news

Attachment 283998

That flip is incorrect. Both the M101-5 and M101-4 sets are from 1916.

[RedsFan1941]

Isn't Ted Z. the resident expert on these cards? Hopefully he will check in.

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

This thread has been great. I didn't know much about the 47 Bond Bread issue. It looks like the portrait was issued along with 12 other cards in a sub set? There also seems to be two different Jackie cards in the regular 1947 set (one with clipped corners and one without)? Interested to know why some consider the white border portrait his RC and not the others issued in the sub set or the regular portrait card in the set?

edited to add - I'm wondering if the large number of Jackie cards in this set and sub set has added to lack of demand and depression on pricing. Or is this card ready to see an Exhibit Gehrig take off?

I should probably defer to Shaun because I know he's done extensive research and is an expert on the set, but I believe it was confirmed (by Shaun or possibly Ted Z...I can't remember) via advertising from the period that the Portrait with Facsimile Auto (white bordered card) was a promotional card distributed to retailers and that's why there were potentially more of those cards in existence and that survived. This is reflected in the population reports, with the number of Portrait w/ facsimile graded cards far exceeding the other 12 cards in the white bordered subset. That said there are only just over 100 graded Portrait w/ facsimile auto cards between SGC/PSA. Other cards in the subset are extremely rare (less than 15 graded in some cases and depending on the pose).

[CharleyBrown]

The Bond Bread portrait-facsimile from the set of 13 (white borders) was distributed both in stores (for free), and in promo packages with 2 slices of bread during the summer of 1947 (June-July). The exact date of the clipped corners BB card was either the Spring or Fall of 1947. The Old Gold Kneeling in Dugout card was issued in September of 1947.

Regarding the set of 13 - there are 3 backs which help to clear the release date of each. The first card issued was the portrait-facsimile sig. Here's that card:



The next batch of 6 came out between Fall of 1947 and late Spring / early Summer of 1948.

Here's an example of one of those 6 cards:



The last batch of 6 cards came out late Summer of 1949. Here's an example of the back from that batch:



Please forgive my scan quality. I'll be investing in a top quality scanner in the fall and will update them.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Shaun thanks for providing that info. When did this issue get released?

[WWG]

Maybe the 1947 Bond Bread will get more attention and the price will skyrocket.

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

Shaun thanks for providing that info. When did this issue get released?

..


...1947 Brooklyn Dodgers Team Issue Photo Pack....this picture was used a lot ...

..

Originally Posted by MikeGarcia

..


...1947 Brooklyn Dodgers Team Issue Photo Pack....this picture was used a lot ...

..

I think he's wanting to know about the approximate release of the card he showed (with uncropped corners), which I understood to be a later release, compared to the D302 with the same image and cropped corners.

[OsFan]

As someone who began collecting vintage cards in the late 70s and who leaves and the re-enters the hobby every so many years, it's interesting that the discussion of which issue is the rookie card of some of the biggest names of the game has yet to be fully worked out.
In a way I guess that's part of what continues to make the hobby interesting after all these years.

[darwinbulldog]

On the rounded (or "cropped") vs. square corner issue, my recollection is that the dating here is based on Ted Z's having posted about his childhood memories of getting the rounded ones from loaves of bread that his family purchased for their restaurant(s) back in 1947 in conjunction with his having no memory of having seen the square corner ones pop up until more recent years.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

There's plenty to choose from, but I like the 1947 D302 portrait.

The 1947 Bond Bread Exhibit (not actually from the Chicago Exhibit Supply Co.) is particularly elusive. The powers that be in the hobby used to call the 1933 Goudey Ruth his rookie too, in decades gone by. Whether a card is "mainstream" or a regional has ceased to matter much in the days of the internet and large auction house offerings--take a look at the 1914 Baltimore News Ruth or the various locally issued but scarce to extremely rare 1907 Ty Cobb issues. See also the 1921 Tip Top Lefty Grove. I got a kick out of an auction house recently calling the 1938 Goudey DiMaggio his "mainstream" rookie. T'ain't no such thing!

Regards,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by rats60

No it isn't. Bowman was available in all major markets in 1951. The requirement for a rookie card has always been that it be a national release. Missing 3 of the top 4 or 5 markets is not a national release.

No such "requirement" exists now--that's early Beckett/dark ages hobby thinking. In the days of the internet and pervasive auction house offerings, regional versus national offerings has been trending enormously towards and will ultimately be a distinction without any significant difference.

Happy collecting,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities

That flip is incorrect. Both the M101-5 and M101-4 sets are from 1916.

Exactly right--same year of issue, although the numbering of the cards differs in some respects.

Regards,

Larry

[barrysloate]

As great as the Bond Bread issue is- and thanks Shaun for the useful information- they were a regional issue, pretty much available only in Brooklyn. Some collectors prefer that rookie cards were distributed nationally. It's fodder for debate.

[CharleyBrown]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

As great as the Bond Bread issue is- and thanks Shaun for the useful information- they were a regional issue, pretty much available only in Brooklyn. Some collectors prefer that rookie cards were distributed nationally. It's fodder for debate.

Barry, they were available outside of Brooklyn as well. In NYC, they could be found in Brooklyn and Harlem. They were also available in these cities and their suburbs (I may be missing some as I'm on the phone away from my research): Washington DC, Baltimore, Detroit, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Chicago, St. Louis, Montreal.

While I've tracked down some cards from New Orleans, they were not purchased from the original owner, but rather pawn shop / dealers that bought them as part of a collection. Since I don't know if the person that sold to those dealers / pawn shops moved to New Orleans later in life, I can't confirm that they were available in that city.

[CharleyBrown]

That being said, I don't know about the clipped corner Bond Bread issue, as I have not researched it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CharleyBrown

Barry, they were available outside of Brooklyn as well. In NYC, they could be found in Brooklyn and Harlem. They were also available in these cities and their suburbs (I may be missing some as I'm on the phone away from my research): Washington DC, Baltimore, Detroit, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Chicago, St. Louis, Montreal.

While I've tracked down some cards from New Orleans, they were not purchased from the original owner, but rather pawn shop / dealers that bought them as part of a collection. Since I don't know if the person that sold to those dealers / pawn shops moved to New Orleans later in life, I can't confirm that they were available in that city.

May I ask how you were able to find out that Bond Breads were sold in (for example) Baltimore and its suburbs in 1947? That's pretty impressive and have no idea how one would go about that.