1949 Jackies on Memory Lane

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by rats60

The Leaf cards came out in 1949, not 1948.

Still the Leaf cards of equal grade go for more than the bowman. i guess its the prime rookie card is leaf....

I think the question of which of Jackie's cards is his true RC is an intriguing question worthy of debate. There's been a ton of research that has taken place by board members discussing the issue and to me it's either the 1947 Bond Bread Robinson portrait (white border) with facsimile auto, which I think most agree was a promo card or the 1947 D302 Bond Bread with cropped corners. There's absolutely no question both of these (along with the white bordered 12-card Jackie set) pre-date both the 1948 Leaf (actually produced in 1949) and the 1949 Bowman, but I don't think a consensus has been reached to date regarding which was Jackie's absolute first card. Pretty amazing considering the player and his impact on modern day sports and civil rights, much less baseball.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

I think the question of which of Jackie's cards is his true RC is an intriguing question worthy of debate. There's been a ton of research that has taken place by board members discussing the issue and to me it's either the 1947 Bond Bread Robinson portrait (white border) with facsimile auto, which I think most agree was a promo card or the 1947 D302 Bond Bread with cropped corners. There's absolutely no question both of these (along with the white bordered 12-card Jackie set) pre-date both the 1948 Leaf (actually produced in 1949) and the 1949 Bowman, but I don't think a consensus has been reached to date regarding which was Jackie's absolute first card. Pretty amazing considering the player and his impact on modern day sports and civil rights, much less baseball.

I thought that it was determined that the 12 card set was later as some of the photos used were taken in 1949. If you consider regionals as rookie cards than the two Bond Bread cards you mentioned would be Rookie Cards.

The traditional hobby definition is a national release and that would be the 1949 Bowman or Leaf. SMR and PSA are in the dark ages on the 1949 Leaf set. We have collectors who bought the cards in 1949 as well as documentation from early hobby publications that support that. As well as common sense, as most of the cards contain stats from the 1948 season, the Robinson card even carries a 1949 copyright.

Originally Posted by rats60

I thought that it was determined that the 12 card set was later as some of the photos used were taken in 1949. If you consider regionals as rookie cards than the two Bond Bread cards you mentioned would be Rookie Cards.

The traditional hobby definition is a national release and that would be the 1949 Bowman or Leaf. SMR and PSA are in the dark ages on the 1949 Leaf set. We have collectors who bought the cards in 1949 as well as documentation from early hobby publications that support that. As well as common sense, as most of the cards contain stats from the 1948 season, the Robinson card even carries a 1949 copyright.

Yes, you are right. It's been pretty well documented that several of the 12 card set were produced after 1947, I should not have lumped all of them into the same category as the Portrait with facsimile autograph and the D302 with cropped corners. The regional vs. national question aside, its difficult for me not to view either, or at least one, of the 1947 Bond Breads as his true RC considering they both pre-date the Bowman and the Leaf by at least a full year. Factor in their relative scarcity (just over 100 graded Portrait with facsimile between SGC/PSA, not sure of the exact number on the D302 cropped corners) the argument could certainly be made that they are two of the more undervalued cards in the hobby.

[CharleyBrown]

Originally Posted by rats60

I thought that it was determined that the 12 card set was later as some of the photos used were taken in 1949. If you consider regionals as rookie cards than the two Bond Bread cards you mentioned would be Rookie Cards.

The traditional hobby definition is a national release and that would be the 1949 Bowman or Leaf. SMR and PSA are in the dark ages on the 1949 Leaf set. We have collectors who bought the cards in 1949 as well as documentation from early hobby publications that support that. As well as common sense, as most of the cards contain stats from the 1948 season, the Robinson card even carries a 1949 copyright.

The portrait-facsimile signature card was produced and distributed in the summer of 1947. Only 6 of the cards were produced and distributed in 1949. The other 6 between 1947 and 1948. The Old Gold card was also produced and distributed in 1947, though after the Bond Bread card.

I don't understand the regional label for the Bond Bread cards. They were distributed in Montreal, Detroit, Baltimore, DC, St. Louis, NYC, and surrounding suburbs with a moderately sized African American population. Clearly they did not have the production numbers of Bowman or Leaf, but from rough estimates, at least 1 million portrait-facsimile cards were distributed in 1947.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by CharleyBrown

I don't understand the regional label for the Bond Bread cards. They were distributed in Montreal, Detroit, Baltimore, DC, St. Louis, NYC, and surrounding suburbs with a moderately sized African American population. Clearly they did not have the production numbers of Bowman or Leaf, but from rough estimates, at least 1 million portrait-facsimile cards were distributed in 1947.

So the cards weren't available in 3 of the 4 or 5 most populous cities in the country and you wonder why they are a regional set?

Originally Posted by rats60

So the cards weren't available in 3 of the 4 or 5 most populous cities in the country and you wonder why they are a regional set?

Their distribution was multi-regional I think is the point. The Bond Bread shouldn't be overlooked as his true RC just because of the low pop, comparative value to the Topps/Leaf, or because a price guide or third party grading company labels it as such. It's like arguing the 1952 Topps is Mantle's RC

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

Their distribution was multi-regional I think is the point. The Bond Bread shouldn't be overlooked as his true RC just because of the low pop, comparative value to the Topps/Leaf, or because a price guide or third party grading company labels it as such. It's like arguing the 1952 Topps is Mantle's RC

No it isn't. Bowman was available in all major markets in 1951. The requirement for a rookie card has always been that it be a national release. Missing 3 of the top 4 or 5 markets is not a national release.

[CharleyBrown]

Originally Posted by rats60

So the cards weren't available in 3 of the 4 or 5 most populous cities in the country and you wonder why they are a regional set?

I didn't list all the cities where they were available / distributed.

1940 top 13 U.S. cities
1. NY
2. Chicago
3. Philadelphia
4. Los Angeles
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. San Francisco
8. Pittsburgh
9. St. Louis
10. Cleveland
11. Baltimore
12. Minneapolis
13. Washington DC

1950 top 13 U.S. cities
1. NY
2. Chicago
3. Los Angeles
4. Philadelphia
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. San Francisco
8. St. Louis
9. Cleveland
10. Pittsburgh
11. Washington DC
12. Baltimore
13. Minneapolis

I've confirmed that the Bond Bread set of 13 was distributed in NY, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Washington DC, and Baltimore.

There were no MLB teams on the west coast in 1947, so I don't think it's unfair to take out LA and SF. I am actively looking into Boston and Cleveland, though I wouldn't be surprised if the cards were distributed there as well. Not sure on Minneapolis, but I would look into it..

That means that the set was distributed between 1947 and 1949 in 8 of the top 13 cities... possibly 10-11. That also doesn't include Montreal, where the cards were also distributed.

As I mentioned, it was well distributed, far more so than originally known. The low pop numbers are not representative of the number of cards distributed, but rather it can be said that 1) people didn't hold onto the cards or 2) the cards still in existence are in the hands of people that aren't active collectors. I think it could be a little bit of both.

My last purchase of two Bond Bread cards came from the daughter-in-law of a woman who was given the cards by a young gentleman that meant the world to her... both individuals never traveled outside the Detroit area. They were kept in a piano bench, and were the only sports collectibles she had.

[BeanTown]

Pre Rookie

Originally Posted by CharleyBrown

I didn't list all the cities where they were available / distributed.

1940 top 13 U.S. cities
1. NY
2. Chicago
3. Philadelphia
4. Los Angeles
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. San Francisco
8. Pittsburgh
9. St. Louis
10. Cleveland
11. Baltimore
12. Minneapolis
13. Washington DC

1950 top 13 U.S. cities
1. NY
2. Chicago
3. Los Angeles
4. Philadelphia
5. Detroit
6. Boston
7. San Francisco
8. St. Louis
9. Cleveland
10. Pittsburgh
11. Washington DC
12. Baltimore
13. Minneapolis

I've confirmed that the Bond Bread set of 13 was distributed in NY, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Washington DC, and Baltimore.

There were no MLB teams on the west coast in 1947, so I don't think it's unfair to take out LA and SF. I am actively looking into Boston and Cleveland, though I wouldn't be surprised if the cards were distributed there as well. Not sure on Minneapolis, but I would look into it..

That means that the set was distributed between 1947 and 1949 in 8 of the top 13 cities... possibly 10-11. That also doesn't include Montreal, where the cards were also distributed.

As I mentioned, it was well distributed, far more so than originally known. The low pop numbers are not representative of the number of cards distributed, but rather it can be said that 1) people didn't hold onto the cards or 2) the cards still in existence are in the hands of people that aren't active collectors. I think it could be a little bit of both.

My last purchase of two Bond Bread cards came from the daughter-in-law of a woman who was given the cards by a young gentleman that meant the world to her... both individuals never traveled outside the Detroit area. They were kept in a piano bench, and were the only sports collectibles she had.

So um, yeah. The 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Portrait is his true RC as far as I'm concerned. Others may disagree and that's fine. Thanks for sharing this knowledge Shaun.

[WWG]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Still the Leaf cards of equal grade go for more than the bowman. i guess its the prime rookie card is leaf....

I would agree the Leaf goes for a lot more and SMR even labels it as (R) Rookie, not the Bowman

1948 Leaf
1948 Leaf.jpg

1949 Bowman
1949 Bowman.jpg

It's only his rookie if you ignore the Bond Breads

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

It's only his rookie if you ignore the Bond Breads

Given that enough time has passed with seasoned hobbyists and the facts the Leaf is clearly the most valuable, we can put whatever labels we want but people will ignore claimed 'rookie' cards that go for less. Whatever goes for the most money is the true rookie when looking to break and arguable tie.

So its easy to ignore. Like ignoring the 1951 bowman mantle versus the topps 52. What would of been interesting is if Mantle starting playing a year earlier and there was a 1950 or 1949 card out there for mantle as a RC and also the 1952 Topps rookie. Its easier to stomach a 1952 topps 'rookie' because its only a year away from 1951. Yes Leaf can be considered a 1949..but its labeled a 1948 and yet again, only a year away from 1949 bowman. When its a 2 year difference..its hard to stomach

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Given that enough time has passed with seasoned hobbyists and the facts the Leaf is clearly the most valuable, we can put whatever labels we want but people will ignore claimed 'rookie' cards that go for less. Whatever goes for the most money is the true rookie when looking to break and arguable tie.

So its easy to ignore. Like ignoring the 1951 bowman mantle versus the topps 52. What would of been interesting is if Mantle starting playing a year earlier and there was a 1950 or 1949 card out there for mantle as a RC and also the 1952 Topps rookie. Its easier to stomach a 1952 topps 'rookie' because its only a year away from 1951. Yes Leaf can be considered a 1949..but its labeled a 1948 and yet again, only a year away from 1949 bowman. When its a 2 year difference..its hard to stomach

I don't think anyone inside our hobby considers the 52 Mantle a rookie card. I do see it described as a rookie when I see articles written about new finds or big sales by those who don't collect.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I don't think anyone inside our hobby considers the 52 Mantle a rookie card. I do see it described as a rookie when I see articles written about new finds or big sales by those who don't collect.

SGC does.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

SGC does.

I suppose that puts their hobby knowledge on par with their hobby relevance these days.