Ashamed - Topps T206 Buy Back Fraud

[KendallCat]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Look here, prick, if you want to have a discussion, we can do so. But if you want to call my integrity into question, that takes it to another level.



Actually, I can give you many examples where representing something as an item that is one thing with the intention to deceive for financial gain is not fraud or illegal. Unethical - yes. Illegal - no. Do you want to listen or do you just want to be a prick?

Edited to add: I don't know why I keep having to reiterate this, but I'll do it once again. What Larry did was totally wrong, unethical, unscrupulous, deceitful, dishonest (fill in the adjective here). My original response was in question to whether or not he would be charged or prosecuted and I simply questioned the legality of it. I don't know why I have to keep clarifying my comments.

David - you might want to switch to decaf and drop the internet tough guy schtick, or maybe don't be so sensitive - your call. Just letting you know puffing your chest out is not impressing anyone but have at it.

Your integrity was not called into question(maybe your common sense on this matter trying to decipher law vs ethics), and everyone can read what I posted - "I would not chose to deal with or have dealings with someone whose Pov was one that still doubles down on trying to explore the nuances of what is fraud, what is illegal, what is unethical... pretty sure in this case it is clear cut that what he did was fraud and was carried out over among time and with 80+ people.

If someone makes fake Jordan rookies and sells them as legit 86 Fleer cards and makes money off of them is that fraud and illegal or just unethical so let them have at it. Need to clean the language up around here, or at least make it interesting for everyone to read

KC

[frankbmd]

It's pretty clear that this activity began sometime after 2002 and before 2009.

Is there a more specific date when this all began?

Someone has to know.

[RedsFan1941]

Is there a way to tell a legit Topps t206 from the ones this guy created?

[egbeachley]

Do collectors of the Topps Buyback realize that they aren't numbered and the frames aren't tamper-proof? Hence there should not be a premium for T206 cards in the Topps Buyback frames. Anyone can make them and I doubt Larry is the only one to have done this.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by KendallCat

If someone makes fake Jordan rookies and sells them as legit 86 Fleer cards and makes money off of them is that fraud and illegal or just unethical so let them have at it. Need to clean the language up around here, or at least make it interesting for everyone to read

KC

In your example, the one making the fake Jordans is representing them as real Fleer Jordans - a real Fleer product - a counterfeit. My point was that these were never a Topps product to begin with. Thats the major difference. Even BVG doesn't acknowledge them as a Topps product. Look at the picture below. Where does it mention that it's a Topps product on the flip? Ask yourself why not? Even Topps don't acknowledge them as a Topps product. Its a novelty item that Topps fabricated and put their name on.



Now, maybe Topps might have something to say about Larry using the Topps name, I don't know. But as far as the actual fabrication of the cards, it's not illegal no matter how much you want to believe it is.

If I want to put raw T206s in plastic screw downs and write "Donruss" on the holder and sell them like that it's not illegal. Again, maybe Donruss might have something to say about using their name and it's surely misleading and unethical, but not illegal. People are letting their emotions and hobby passion get in the way of reasoning.

All that said, what he did was wrong and Leon did the right thing by bringing it to the boards attention and banning him. By the way, I thought I read that someone made Topps aware of the situation. I'm just curious as to their response.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Even Topps don't acknowledge them as a Topps product. Its a novelty item that Topps fabricated and put their name on. . . . Now, maybe Topps might have something to say about Larry using the Topps name, I don't know. But as far as the actual fabrication of the cards, it's not illegal no matter how much you want to believe it is.

I couldn't disagree with you more on the law or your facts. On the facts, to say Topps doesn't acknowledge these as their product ignores the word "Topps" on the top of the cardboard frame and that these were sold as promotional inserts to drive customers to their product. You make counterfeit inserts, you don't think Topps' business is hurt by that? People would buy fewer Topps packs than they would because of the counterfeiting. Pointing out that grading companies may not authenticate or grade the holder is besides the point. People collect these for what Topps says they are. This is an indisputable fact.

The law is clear as day, and has been cited by many folks on here accurately and correctly. He may not get sued in civil court by Topps or his unwitting customers, and the FBI and local police may not charge him in criminal court. But, the lack of formal process here doesn't make the conduct legal.