Ashamed - Topps T206 Buy Back Fraud

[Il Padrino]

Originally Posted by ramram

I would suspect he hit the silence button because, lawyers help me out here, does that not constitute mail fraud?

Mail Fraud = Yes
Copyright Infringement and Fraud = Yes and I'm sure Ebay has been notified.
Interstate Fraud = Yes
Wire Fraud = Yes
etc.
etc.
etc.
--------------------
Mail

18 U.S.C. § 1341 provides: Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, or to sell, dispose of, loan, exchange, alter, give away, distribute, supply, or furnish or procure for unlawful use any counterfeit or spurious coin, obligation, security, or other article, or anything represented to be or intimated or held out to be such counterfeit or spurious article, for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice or attempting so to do, places in any post office or authorized depository for mail matter, any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by the Postal Service, or deposits or causes to be deposited any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by any private or commercial interstate carrier, or takes or receives therefrom, any such matter or thing, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail or such carrier according to the direction thereon, or at the place at which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any such matter or thing, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation occurs in relation to, or involving any benefit authorized, transported, transmitted, transferred, disbursed, or paid in connection with, a Presidential declared major disaster or emergency (as those terms are defined in section 102 of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5122)), or affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

Wire

18 U.S.C. § 1343 provides: Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

Honest services

18 U.S.C. § 1346 provides: For the purposes of this chapter, the term “scheme or artifice to defraud” includes a scheme or artifice to deprive another of the intangible right of honest services.

Elements

There are three elements to mail and wire fraud:

Intent;
A "scheme or artifice to defraud" or the obtaining of property by fraud; and,
A mail or wire communication.

To be fraudulent, a misrepresentation must be material.

Mail fraud applies only to United States domestic mailings and use of interstate carriers (UPS, FedEx) which must originate in one state, and successfully terminate pursuant to the address label inside another state, a transportation that is termed "interstate" (over which Congress has power to regulate) and does require that the mailing cross at least one state line into another state; wire fraud has been expanded by Congress to include foreign wire communication or interstate connections via (e.g.) an e-mail server or telephone switch or radio communication.

[7nohitter]

So is this rube being charged and prosecuted?

[jb217676]

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240701

Go to post #6, they all look sliced and diced to me.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

So is this rube being charged and prosecuted?

Even though I have been involved I am not sure if any punitive situations will occur. My main goals are to help people get reimbursed for bad items and try to make sure the perpetrator quits doing what they are doing. I am not sure the dollar amounts justify a ton of authorities but anyone is always free to do anything they want to.
So, In the meantime Larry can be reached at -
lharri3600@gmail.com

.....I think he will happily accept a return provided the card is returned first. I would strongly recommend signature confirmation because of the nature of all of this. Please PM me with any specific issues and I will try to help best I can...Happy collecting.

.

[bobbyw8469]

Due to the nature and extent of the scam, I would be leery sending him anything, even WITH signature confirmation. He obviously isn't fearful of authorities and what not. What is to stop him from collecting returned cards and reselling them again? He is obviously money hungry.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

So is this rube being charged and prosecuted?

I was talking to a friend of mine about this and, as unpopular as what I'm about to say might be, I'm not sure Larry did anything illegal. Unethical? Sure, absolutely, no question! But illegal? I'm not so sure.

The first thing you have to understand is that these are not Topps buybacks. Look at the Topps box packaging. Nowhere do they use the word buyback. This is a term that collectors dubbed them as. They couldn't be buybacks because they were never a Topps product to begin with.

Larry (or you or I or anyone for that matter) have as much right to repackage a T206 as Topps does. Look at the Topps cards. Nowhere does it have their copyright/trademark. They can’t because it’s not their product. Now, they can with their own T206 bat cards, jersey cards, autographs, etc., but they cannot do it with the actual T206 cards because they do not belong to Topps.

At least that’s my understanding. I can post more on this later.

Again, I’m not arguing whether or not it’s ethical. It’s not! But I do question whether or not it’s illegal.

[7nohitter]

Hmmmm, definitely interesting, David!

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I was talking to a friend of mine about this and, as unpopular as what I'm about to say might be, I'm not sure Larry did anything illegal. Unethical? Sure, absolutely, no question! But illegal? I'm not so sure.

The first thing you have to understand is that these are not Topps buybacks. Look at the Topps box packaging. Nowhere do they use the word buyback. This is a term that collectors dubbed them as. They couldn't be buybacks because they were never a Topps product to begin with.

Larry (or you or I or anyone for that matter) have as much right to repackage a T206 as Topps does. Look at the Topps cards. Nowhere does it have their copyright/trademark. They can’t because it’s not their product. Now, they can with their own T206 bat cards, jersey cards, autographs, etc., but they cannot do it with the actual T206 cards because they do not belong to Topps.

At least that’s my understanding. I can post more on this later.

Again, I’m not arguing whether or not it’s ethical. It’s not! But I do question whether or not it’s illegal.

That is an interesting question, but I think it's important to separate out the two different issues here.

The first question is whether there was any sort of copyright or trademark infringement. I'm not an expert in that area, but since Topps may not have a copyright or trademark on the buy back holder, I can see why that may create some gray area in this particular situation.

However, as to the question of whether this violates any criminal laws, I would still say yes. Criminal liability usually attaches where there is an intent to defraud. Here, I think there was pretty clearly an intent to defraud based on the way he packaged the cards. He was clearly trying to deceive the purchasers. I believe that would come within most state and federal fraud-related statutes.

[Leon]

Forget all of the copyright stuff as it could be illegal or could not be..who knows?

I will tell you what IS most likely illegal. It is knowingly and intentionally selling something that isn't what it is purported to be. I think that is fraud.

If anyone doesn't want to send a card back to Larry, with Signature confirmation for a refund, which is crazy as there is no way in heck Larry is not going to make it right at this point, then I will be a middle person to send the card to. Once it gets to me, I will make sure the refund is done and the card gets to Larry.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I was talking to a friend of mine about this and, as unpopular as what I'm about to say might be, I'm not sure Larry did anything illegal. Unethical? Sure, absolutely, no question! But illegal? I'm not so sure.

The first thing you have to understand is that these are not Topps buybacks. Look at the Topps box packaging. Nowhere do they use the word buyback. This is a term that collectors dubbed them as. They couldn't be buybacks because they were never a Topps product to begin with.

Larry (or you or I or anyone for that matter) have as much right to repackage a T206 as Topps does. Look at the Topps cards. Nowhere does it have their copyright/trademark. They can’t because it’s not their product. Now, they can with their own T206 bat cards, jersey cards, autographs, etc., but they cannot do it with the actual T206 cards because they do not belong to Topps.

At least that’s my understanding. I can post more on this later.

Again, I’m not arguing whether or not it’s ethical. It’s not! But I do question whether or not it’s illegal.

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by Leon

I will tell you what IS most likely illegal. It is knowingly and intentionally selling something that isn't what it is purported to be. I think that is fraud.

Yup.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

I will tell you what IS most likely illegal. It is knowingly and intentionally selling something that isn't what it is purported to be. I think that is fraud.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not arguing with you, or defending Larry, but it is what its purported to be. It's a T206 card. It makes no mention of a specific card or grade - it's just as the Topps box says - a "Genuine T206 Card." Again, illegal? I'm not sure. Unethical? Very much so.