Proposed Change to Lessen Manipulative Bidding/Conversation with PWCC/Input Wanted

[griffon512]

ok...but the point is if bidders with a number of bid retractions over the last 6 months are not allowed to bid in an auction it is more likely that you would pay a lower price on some items. is that something you want or don't want?

[Snapolit1]

Is that a post or the first half of Moby Dick?

[trobba]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Is that a post or the first half of Moby Dick?

Classic, very funny stuff

[griffon512]

i know they are difficult to distinguish...moby dick being a 5 page book.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by griffon512

i know they are difficult to distinguish...moby dick being a 5 page book.

o whale.

[mechanicalman]

I would rather read James' lengthy, but well-articulated thoughts that actually propose a solution instead of another pithy post whining about high BIN prices. I'd also rather read these posts than my own posts arguing with some dude in the BST.

To the OP's original position, I agree that banning those with a high retraction rate would be a positive first step, but I also agree that there are other forces at play driving prices beyond serial retractors.

[begsu1013]

anything concrete on these other forces?

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

anything concrete on these other forces?

You're reading too much into my comment, Bob. "Market forces" are not inherently illegal or nefarious. I think the primary force at work is that there are simply a lot more deep-pocketed dudes entering the hobby willing to spend more on certain cards. I've spoken with some hobbyists/investors who believe in protecting their investments, but as long as they bid cleanly, do not collude, and pay when they win, I see nothing wrong with it. I have no evidence, and am highly doubtful of, an organized global conspiracy to drive the price of uncentered Pete Rose rookies. But then again, I'm not looking too hard for evidence, so who knows?

[JustinD]

It admittedly has been many years since I sold personally on Ebay, I left due to the prevalence of returns for buyer's remorse, NBP's and the inability to leave negative feedback for buyers.

In the past when placing an auction the seller could set a minimum feedback for bidders, Block buyer's with recent neg's and also (I believe) block NPB's.

If Ebay still has those settings forgive me, but I think offering the option to block bidders who withdrew more than one bid int the past 30 days, or had any NPB's. Withdrawals should also require the permission of the seller and if not given, the bidder should be forced to NPB and risk a ban for the "error".

These would be a boon to both sellers and bidders and a win-win. Also blocking anyone with a feedback less than 10, with the ability to email the seller for permission to bid.

Blocking people with Neg's means nothing now if you can't leave a negative for anyone.

As they are unlikely to do this, it is left on the shoulders of responsible sellers. It is easy for them to block a shill account once identified, but the shill will just make another. It's a difficult thing to resolve when Ebay wants no part of it.

[sbfinley]

Honestly, I think more bids are retracted to scare bidders off an item than there are to inflate a hammer price. It's not spoke of as much as shill bidding, but yes plenty of people have alternate accounts just to bid and retract multiple times to thin the buyer pool. I've argue before, as many have, bid your max and forget about the rest. To me it's not worth losing sleep over if I overpaid by 20% on a baseball card. To some it is, and they'll believe to the end it's bad for the hobby. It's no different than someone's political affiliation. Those that believe it's a minor nuisance will likely always believe that and those believe it's systemic cancer will also always hold that point of view. EBay isn't going to change their business model in a way that negatively affect their bottom line and an upstart competitor can't take their business without massive capital, at which point it would more than likely be eBay 2.0. I'm interested to hear Brent changes, but based upon the setup site he uses, it can likely only stunt the problem.

[begsu1013]

i like the way steven thinks.

the retractions, at least some of the time, are done to have the opposite effect....to keep the prices down. not to inflate them, but still could be guised as "price manipulation".

they've simply tricked you into not bidding on the item due to your solid stance about not participating in a "shilled" auction. no more, no less.

[pokerplyr80]

I'm not so sure the retractions are having as big of an impact as you think. A lot of ebay bidders, myself included, will place an early bid or two, but save the real bid for a last minute snipe. If a bid or two had been made and retracted along the way I might not even notice. If someone shill bids up to my max with 5 days left and then retracts, what have they really gained? It was probably far from what my snipe will be in the end.

I do agree that retractions shouldn't be used as a tool to determine another bidder's max. I would support banning those from auctions with more than a couple of retractions, or banning retractions all together. I believe most, if not all other auctions have language in their terms and conditions that say all bids are final and no retractions are allowed. Perhaps changing the ebay policy would be a solution.

[iwantitiwinit]

Aren't these changes ebay would have to enact not PWCC? If thats the case I don't know any of this even matters.

[FirstYearCards]

Like Robert's name implies (iwantitiwinit). If you want the card, buy it. If you are putting in an early bid and it gets bid up, you are involved in the game the shill is playing. Don't play the game! Snipe or put in your bid early(what you value the card at) and be done with it.

[ALR-bishop]

I would favor eBay limiting retractions and suspending someone who exceeded the limit, which should be a minimal number. If one eBay seller adopts such a policy I applaud the seller but to be effective it has to be an eBay initiative in the end.

I too snipe and thus do not pay more than I am wiling to venture, but serial retractors would seem to raise prices in general....and they are annoying people

[begsu1013]

again, some people intentionally bid up in small increments til they top out and then retract SOLELY to drive away other perspective bidders.

manipulation is happening, simply not as widespread as everyone that missed the boat thinks though. still have yet to see one lick of solitary proof other than he said, she said.

concentrate on your game. not their's.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by FirstYearCards

Like Robert's name implies (iwantitiwinit). If you want the card, buy it. If you are putting in an early bid and it gets bid up, you are involved in the game the shill is playing. Don't play the game! Snipe or put in your bid early(what you value the card at) and be done with it.

To me there is a big difference between a shill bidder and a bidder who reneges (retracts - basically same thing.)

A shill bidder is just another person you have to bid against if you want to win an item. If the bidding gets too high, drop out. If the shill bidder tries to push your bid up further but you decide not to do so, the joke, and expenses, are on him.

Someone who bids and reneges is either a shill bidder who is not willing to pay the consequences of failing to push your bid higher, or he does so in order to gain private information - namely, what the max bid is. In the first scenario you're bidding against a ghost who is trying to maximize what you will pay, while running no risk of expense himself, and in the other, he is basically making your max bid public information.

So ask yourself, when you place a max bid, would it bother you if the AH knew what it was? Would it bother you if everyone seriously watching that item knew what it was?

Somebody wants to shill bid me I don't care, as long as he/she pays when I don't take the bait. People who retract (renege) on their bids are cheating and it is a problem.

[FirstYearCards]

I really couldn't care less who knows what my max bid is. If I bid on a card and its pushed up to the max, that's what I'm willing to pay. Nobody told me to bid more than I wanted to.

If I do plan on the card as an investment and plan to resell, then I'm a moron for bidding more than the card was worth in the first place. And yes this has happened to me and as I have overbid plenty of times. In the end, it's what I was comfortable paying.

By the way, I typically snipe on Ebay, get an opening bid in AH's so I can put my real bid in extended bidding and generally offer my best price to people here on BST(with a little wiggle room).

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by Mark17

To me there is a big difference between a shill bidder and a bidder who reneges (retracts - basically same thing.)

A shill bidder is just another person you have to bid against if you want to win an item. If the bidding gets too high, drop out. If the shill bidder tries to push your bid up further but you decide not to do so, the joke, and expenses, are on him.

Someone who bids and reneges is either a shill bidder who is not willing to pay the consequences of failing to push your bid higher, or he does so in order to gain private information - namely, what the max bid is. In the first scenario you're bidding against a ghost who is trying to maximize what you will pay, while running no risk of expense himself, and in the other, he is basically making your max bid public information.

So ask yourself, when you place a max bid, would it bother you if the AH knew what it was? Would it bother you if everyone seriously watching that item knew what it was?

Somebody wants to shill bid me I don't care, as long as he/she pays when I don't take the bait. People who retract (renege) on their bids are cheating and it is a problem.

great points, thanks for your input

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Aren't these changes ebay would have to enact not PWCC? If thats the case I don't know any of this even matters.

no. pwcc or any other auction house can do it.

[JustCollectVP]

This response is with respect to eBay auctions as auction houses are an entirely different bidding entity that requires a different bidding strategy and execution.

Setting snipes helps avert some of the "shilling" and retraction issues addressed by the OP.

However, if someone is shilling an auction, they are usually doing so to either inflate the potential final sales price, entice bidders into believing that there's a bidding war or to set a floor or reserve for the item. And they are usually doing this in the earlier stages of the auction, not in the closing hours or minutes (eBay restricts retractions in the final hours).

Retractions are most often used to "out" an underbidder's maximum bid. Not such a concern when they happen early in an auction as the serious bidding has yet to take place, but still a concern.

Personally, I think too many spend too much time worrying about the "what ifs" and the "am I getting shilled" to enjoy the chase of cards that they want. And then the sword cuts again when they win, as they feel cheated and when they lose, they have a built in excuse.

Simply snipe it. Set your and let your bid roll out in the last seconds. Too late to have someone retract a bid on you and too late for a shilling to react if they haven't already capped your bid...

[HRBAKER]

The easiest solution is to stop playing where you think this is going on.
This is an unregulated industry, ebay has done everything they can to make their process as opaque as possible to bidders and buyers.

The biggest problem is our inability to say no thanks.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Aren't these changes ebay would have to enact not PWCC? If thats the case I don't know any of this even matters.

I block buyers when I have trouble with them. PWCC can certainly do the same. If someone with 20 retractions bids then retracts in a PWCC auction they can simply block them and then they are unable to even access PWCC auctions going forward. They receive no notice of the block it just happens.