Liquidity & Investing vs collecting

[kickitup]

Packs,

I am sorry I hurt your feelings when I responded to your opinion of what you might believe I am doing should be characterized as. Hurting your feelings was not the intent. You are no better or no worse than me, period. The amount of money I have or don't have should not characterize what I do with it or how the impacts of what I choose to do affect my life.

Calling what I am doing gambling is ignorant. Why? Because you have no idea what my situation is, just like I have no idea what yours is.

Just because it's a lot to you doesn't mean it's a lot to me. That's ok too... You are likely a nice guy, a great friend, a great dad etc, but just because I might have more money than you doesn't make me a gambler and you a collector because of the dollar amount I choose to put into cards.

My whole point was here that I am trying to encourage you all to not get caught up in what things used to be worth, but instead what they are worth now and what they will be worth in the future. I get annoyed so often by people complaining about how dumb prices are and how much manipulation goes on. I make up that people blame it on manipulation that prices are going up, but my sense is these same people are stuck in the past.

Hypothetically speaking, If I am willing to buy one Lou Gehrig card for 300k and that has a population of 3, I can assure you I am also willing to buy the other two for the same price before I let one of them go for less. I am an investor and I will protect my investment accordingly. I don't make any move without being willing to protect my move. If I think a card is worth 300k and there are 3 of them, I need to be willing to invest 900k in that card to make that purchase. That's not gambling, that is smart and logical investing. If I end up buying all 3 for 900k, fine, but I sure am going to support the market to protect my investment. I can only do that if I buy within my means and go in with a plan.

I hardly call that gambling. I think it's smart. I don't need you to agree with me, but I don't appreciate it when anyone tries to characterize what I am willing to do gambling when the dollar amount is merely larger than an amount they might be comfortable spending.

I can tell you all this. I don't buy a 50k Namath rookie unless I am willing to buy 50 of them for that. I consider my investments before I make them. I encourage those who don't think this way to realize there are others like me out there that are willing to buy not only one card, but all of them for "X" price and control the market.

This is happening and it bugs me that no one else realizes it. I can't convince you all that this is right or wrong, but I'm telling you it's happening because I am doing it and will continue to do so.

[botn]

Originally Posted by kickitup

Packs,

I am sorry I hurt your feelings when I responded to your opinion of what you might believe I am doing should be characterized as. Hurting your feelings was not the intent. You are no better or no worse than me, period. The amount of money I have or don't have should not characterize what I do with it or how the impacts of what I choose to do affect my life.

Calling what I am doing gambling is ignorant. Why? Because you have no idea what my situation is, just like I have no idea what yours is.

Just because it's a lot to you doesn't mean it's a lot to me. That's ok too... You are likely a nice guy, a great friend, a great dad etc, but just because I might have more money than you doesn't make me a gambler and you a collector because of the dollar amount I choose to put into cards.

My whole point was here that I am trying to encourage you all to not get caught up in what things used to be worth, but instead what they are worth now and what they will be worth in the future. I get annoyed so often by people complaining about how dumb prices are and how much manipulation goes on. I make up that people blame it on manipulation that prices are going up, but my sense is these same people are stuck in the past.

Hypothetically speaking, If I am willing to buy one Lou Gehrig card for 300k and that has a population of 3, I can assure you I am also willing to buy the other two for the same price before I let one of them go for less. I am an investor and I will protect my investment accordingly. I don't make any move without being willing to protect my move. If I think a card is worth 300k and there are 3 of them, I need to be willing to invest 900k in that card to make that purchase. That's not gambling, that is smart and logical investing. If I end up buying all 3 for 900k, fine, but I sure am going to support the market to protect my investment. I can only do that if I buy within my means and go in with a plan.

I hardly call that gambling. I think it's smart. I don't need you to agree with me, but I don't appreciate it when anyone tries to characterize what I am willing to do gambling when the dollar amount is merely larger than an amount they might be comfortable spending.

I can tell you all this. I don't buy a 50k Namath rookie unless I am willing to buy 50 of them for that. I consider my investments before I make them. I encourage those who don't think this way to realize there are others like me out there that are willing to buy not only one card, but all of them for "X" price and control the market.

This is happening and it bugs me that no one else realizes it. I can't convince you all that this is right or wrong, but I'm telling you it's happening because I am doing it and will continue to do so.

Not sure I understand why it is necessary to own all or attempt to own all of a particular card in order to justify owning one? What you have described is more of market manipulation or positioning yourself so that you can manipulate the market. I know you will not agree.

[kickitup]

So if there is a pop1 PSA 10 Nolan Ryan rookie, am I manipulating and controlling the market becaus I own the best card and won't sell it? Just because I am willing to buy the best card at a certain time doesn't mean I am manipulating the market. It merely means I am willing to pay more than anyone else for it. And if someone wants to buy it from me, they will have to pay me what I think it's worth to sell it. That's not manipulation... That is free market capitalism and perfectly legal.

Go try to buy some pop1 tens from Ken Kendrick's dBACKS collection. Do you think he is just going to sell them because you want to buy them for $125? And are you going to accuse him of manipulation because he bought the best card and doesn't want to sell it for what you want to pay? And he is also willing to buy anymore that come available at the same price?

[botn]

Originally Posted by kickitup

So if there is a pop1 PSA 10 Nolan Ryan rookie, am I manipulating and controlling the market becaus I own the best card and won't sell it? Just because I am willing to buy the best card at a certain time doesn't mean I am manipulating the market. It merely means I am willing to pay more than anyone else for it. And if someone wants to buy it from me, they will have to pay me what I think it's worth to sell it. That's not manipulation... That is free market capitalism and perfectly legal.

Go try to buy some pop1 tens from Ken Kendrick's dBACKS collection. Do you think he is just going to sell them because you want to buy them for $125? And are you going to accuse him of manipulation because he bought the best card and doesn't want to sell it for what you want to pay? And he is also willing to buy anymore that come available at the same price?

I would offer at least $150 for Kendrick's pop 1 10s on the chance that one of them would actually grade again. Buying a 1 of 1 that happens to be the whole market for that card in the grade is not the same as what you have described as attempting to buy up every example of a particular card but someone as astute as you did not need me to explain that to you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And your purpose in coming here and admitting you are trying to corner the market or whatever term you want to use is? I mean other than to proclaim the new world order, of course, I got that one.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I would like to see some scans of the OP's investments.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I would like to see some scans of the OP's investments.

I'm guessing you never will.

[benchod]

Originally Posted by kickitup

Packs,

I am sorry I hurt your feelings when I responded to your opinion of what you might believe I am doing should be characterized as. Hurting your feelings was not the intent. You are no better or no worse than me, period. The amount of money I have or don't have should not characterize what I do with it or how the impacts of what I choose to do affect my life.

Calling what I am doing gambling is ignorant. Why? Because you have no idea what my situation is, just like I have no idea what yours is.

Just because it's a lot to you doesn't mean it's a lot to me. That's ok too... You are likely a nice guy, a great friend, a great dad etc, but just because I might have more money than you doesn't make me a gambler and you a collector because of the dollar amount I choose to put into cards.

My whole point was here that I am trying to encourage you all to not get caught up in what things used to be worth, but instead what they are worth now and what they will be worth in the future. I get annoyed so often by people complaining about how dumb prices are and how much manipulation goes on. I make up that people blame it on manipulation that prices are going up, but my sense is these same people are stuck in the past.

Hypothetically speaking, If I am willing to buy one Lou Gehrig card for 300k and that has a population of 3, I can assure you I am also willing to buy the other two for the same price before I let one of them go for less. I am an investor and I will protect my investment accordingly. I don't make any move without being willing to protect my move. If I think a card is worth 300k and there are 3 of them, I need to be willing to invest 900k in that card to make that purchase. That's not gambling, that is smart and logical investing. If I end up buying all 3 for 900k, fine, but I sure am going to support the market to protect my investment. I can only do that if I buy within my means and go in with a plan.

I hardly call that gambling. I think it's smart. I don't need you to agree with me, but I don't appreciate it when anyone tries to characterize what I am willing to do gambling when the dollar amount is merely larger than an amount they might be comfortable spending.

I can tell you all this. I don't buy a 50k Namath rookie unless I am willing to buy 50 of them for that. I consider my investments before I make them. I encourage those who don't think this way to realize there are others like me out there that are willing to buy not only one card, but all of them for "X" price and control the market.
This is happening and it bugs me that no one else realizes it. I can't convince you all that this is right or wrong, but I'm telling you it's happening because I am doing it and will continue to do so.

Well, your original premise is built on shaky grounds. There is a large difference between graded cards as a commodity vs oil, precious metals, hogs etc. When you buy a pound of gold or a barrel of oil you know what you are receiving. Would a barrel of oil sell for $50 if it half water? What if your gold bullion was mixed with nickel? With cards you're assuming that the flip accurately reflects the card and that a PSA 10 is superior to a 9 etc. What if the 10 was in a 9 holder and was resubmitted 20 times to get into a 10 holder? Is it now magically a superior card? 19/20 times it was judged to be a 9. Trimmed and doctored cards are another major factor. You brought up Kendricks collection. His centerpiece card is the prime example of problems with relying exclusively on a grading company's opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Craig stop thinking like a collector or normal human being. The flip is now its own reality. None of that matters to the commodity trader.

[sbfinley]

The only thing I've taken from this thread is that he doesn't like people who complain that the market is manipulated because it isn't. But in the next paragraph he stated he would manipulate the market to protect an investment.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

The only thing I've taken from this thread is that he doesn't like people who complain that the market is manipulated because it isn't. But in the next paragraph he stated he would manipulate the market to protect an investment.

Correction he said he IS doing it.

I can tell you all this. I don't buy a 50k Namath rookie unless I am willing to buy 50 of them for that. I consider my investments before I make them. I encourage those who don't think this way to realize there are others like me out there that are willing to buy not only one card, but all of them for "X" price and control the market.
This is happening and it bugs me that no one else realizes it. I can't convince you all that this is right or wrong, but I'm telling you it's happening because I am doing it and will continue to do so.

[SAllen2556]

My limited understanding of economics suggests that if one person were to buy 50 Namath Rookies and thus greatly reduce supply, then the price would indeed increase, but with the increased price, demand would also decrease. If demand decreases, then the price decreases. If I can't get a Namath rookie at a price I can afford, don't I just eventually move on to Joe Montana?

Also, if supply decreases, production usually increases. So wouldn't more people who wouldn't have previously sold their Namath card now put it in the market, thus increasing supply again and causing prices to decrease. I seem to remember something about price equilibrium.

I have a headache.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

The only thing I've taken from this thread is that he doesn't like people who complain that the market is manipulated because it isn't. But in the next paragraph he stated he would manipulate the market to protect an investment.

He's got the market cornered on tiny border cobbs. It's like ...."hey, where did those borders go?"

[Baseball Bob]

All this talk reminds me of 1999. Anyone remember when the "new economy" Internet stocks were going to replace boring old blue chip stocks? When the market was rising exponentially, and tech stock P/Es were in the 50-100 range? Well, any card made post 1975 is a "new economy" product. The price is rising due principally due to speculation, greed and irrationality, rather than value based on economic fundamentals. The supply of Jordan rookies is nearly unlimited - how many dozens or even hundreds more will be found in dresser drawers, attics and safe deposit boxes in the next ten years? Tons. How many Gehrigs? Very, very few.
Folks, does'nt anyone recall what happened to the NASDAQ in 2002? That's where Jordan rookies are headed. The crash is coming. Oversupply craters a market. Period. Liquidity ends when the speculators run for the exits. They will, and they own the market, just like on Wall Street. They don't get screwed. It's the exuberant little guys who bite the big one.
Just a cheery thought on a Wednesday evening!

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

The only thing I've taken from this thread is that he doesn't like people who complain that the market is manipulated because it isn't. But in the next paragraph he stated he would manipulate the market to protect an investment.

Justin "I can definitely see the benefit in retractions to discover max bids" Cornett is back. The same guy that had 18 retractions in 6 months?

Your theory that high fees prevent shilling at AH's is laughable. You must be from Texas?

If you can use all your little tricks to pump up prices, more power to you. We all win when you win.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The flip is now its own reality.

Whoa, that's a very deep thought...

[boneheadandrube]

If you want to test your investment practices using those Cobbs, try selling them for more than 75% of what you paid to someone other than the person/persons who sold them to you, or back to yourself in an auction. It would be wise to learn not to depend solely on the "Certification" applied to the cards you are investing in. Bad certification is a very big market variable on the high end, especially in that company's holders. You aren't the first person to approach this hobby the way you are and you aren't the first to do so with the handicap of "flip dependancy". You'll get better at picking out solid investments if you do and it will be more fun as well. This is meant to be helpful*

[ALR-bishop]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Whoa, that's a very deep thought...

Agreed, Adam, sort of like The Matrix

[Bpm0014]

Both the BAT ON COBB and WAGNER..... both have the same upward curvature "cut/trim" to the first half of the bottom of the card if you look closely. I may not be explaining that clearly, but if you look closely they both have the same cut.

[Sean]

Brendan, the Wagner seems to have more of a curvature on the top of the card. The Cobb Bat On may have that same curve on the bottom of the card.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by kickitup

I can tell you all this. I don't buy a 50k Namath rookie unless I am willing to buy 50 of them for that. .

OK, but how many PSA 6 Home Run Bakers will it take to protect your $6K investment?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

OK, but how many PSA 6 Home Run Bakers will it take to protect your $6K investment?

I think he should try to find the borders missing on the cobbs he showed. They are somewhere because they didn't get mfg that way.

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think he should try to find the borders missing on the cobbs he showed. They are somewhere because they didn't get mfg that way.

....borders ?? WE DOAN NEED NO STEENKEENG BORDERS !


...MikeGarcia

..

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think he should try to find the borders missing on the cobbs he showed. They are somewhere because they didn't get mfg that way.

LOL! I saw those Cobbs, I just didn't want say anything. But since you said it, Leon, I agree.

[Leon]

I just looked at the borders again and they don't seem as small, relative to the other borders, as I had thought. That being said the green cobb looks a bit short and the red one is out of focus. But admittedly on some scans I just got sent, the borders don't look as small as I remembered them. I think when buying very high grade pre-war we have to be very careful.

[kickitup]

Originally Posted by Leon

I just looked at the borders again and they don't seem as small, relative to the other borders, as I had thought. That being said the green cobb looks a bit short and the red one is out of focus. But admittedly on some scans I just got sent, the borders don't look as small as I remembered them. I think when buying very high grade pre-war we have to be very careful.

here are the cobbs...

[Sean]

The red one is blurry and out of focus, but I think that it's just a bad scan. The borders seem okay to me.

[the 'stache]

Somewhere, Jimmy Hoffa, Elvis, Jim Morrison and the Cobb T206 borders are sitting on a beach, drinking mai tais...

Originally Posted by Leon

I think he should try to find the borders missing on the cobbs he showed. They are somewhere because they didn't get mfg that way.

[kickitup]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

OK, but how many PSA 6 Home Run Bakers will it take to protect your $6K investment?

u got me on that one... and i admitted it.

doh!

touche

[itslarry]

Man everyone is talking about this, not always from the same vantage point tho. Id be kind of scared with all the shills and fakes. To eaxh their own tho
http://http://www.blowoutcards.com/f...a-10s-now.html

[Sean]

Originally Posted by itslarry

Man everyone is talking about this, not always from the same vantage point tho. Id be kind of scared with all the shills and fakes. To eaxh their own tho
http://http://www.blowoutcards.com/f...a-10s-now.html

I can't get this link to work.

[ezez420]

Lots of idiots. Especially the ones that admit they are trying to create and alter a market. And the ones that believe money buys intelligence.

[Bpm0014]

Bat on Shoulder WOULD NOT grade again.... The red is probably ok.... The bat on can't tell....

[Touch'EmAll]

Great large scan of the Wagner. I just used a ruler with centimeter markings and millimeter fractions - and looks like the bottom width is tad wider than top width. But it is just my crude measurement, could very well be off, and I wear glasses - eyesight not the best. And who knows - the factory cuts back then weren't perfect, I assume. If you had to pick the worst corner, would be the upper right - if it were cut, one would want to address that particular corner - goes along with my measurement trial.

The original post spoke of liquidity - its a different world now with auction houses offering money up front, and eBay where you can realize $ in your bank acct. in 2 weeks of listing.

And not all cards are going up. PWCC ended a T205 Cobb PSA 6 that went over $1.k less than it did in 2006. I have been eyeing a PSA 5 Cobb M116 on eBay for $2750. - kinda thought it would be gone by now at that price, but not. Could be wrong, but most of us don't own majority of our collections with waterfront cards. Just be happy if you own a couple, enjoy the rest of your collection. Hopefully the waterfront card market rise will trickle down to what us common folk own.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by itslarry

Man everyone is talking about this, not always from the same vantage point tho. Id be kind of scared with all the shills and fakes. To eaxh their own tho
http://http://www.blowoutcards.com/f...a-10s-now.html

The stories will intersect if they have not already; obviously the high prices on certain cards create even stronger incentives to bring fakes (using the term broadly to include 9s in 10 holders etc.) to the market.

[ezez420]

You have got a big set of balls posting this.

Originally Posted by kickitup

Packs,

I am sorry I hurt your feelings when I responded to your opinion of what you might believe I am doing should be characterized as. Hurting your feelings was not the intent. You are no better or no worse than me, period. The amount of money I have or don't have should not characterize what I do with it or how the impacts of what I choose to do affect my life.

Calling what I am doing gambling is ignorant. Why? Because you have no idea what my situation is, just like I have no idea what yours is.

Just because it's a lot to you doesn't mean it's a lot to me. That's ok too... You are likely a nice guy, a great friend, a great dad etc, but just because I might have more money than you doesn't make me a gambler and you a collector because of the dollar amount I choose to put into cards.

My whole point was here that I am trying to encourage you all to not get caught up in what things used to be worth, but instead what they are worth now and what they will be worth in the future. I get annoyed so often by people complaining about how dumb prices are and how much manipulation goes on. I make up that people blame it on manipulation that prices are going up, but my sense is these same people are stuck in the past.

Hypothetically speaking, If I am willing to buy one Lou Gehrig card for 300k and that has a population of 3, I can assure you I am also willing to buy the other two for the same price before I let one of them go for less. I am an investor and I will protect my investment accordingly. I don't make any move without being willing to protect my move. If I think a card is worth 300k and there are 3 of them, I need to be willing to invest 900k in that card to make that purchase. That's not gambling, that is smart and logical investing. If I end up buying all 3 for 900k, fine, but I sure am going to support the market to protect my investment. I can only do that if I buy within my means and go in with a plan.

I hardly call that gambling. I think it's smart. I don't need you to agree with me, but I don't appreciate it when anyone tries to characterize what I am willing to do gambling when the dollar amount is merely larger than an amount they might be comfortable spending.

I can tell you all this. I don't buy a 50k Namath rookie unless I am willing to buy 50 of them for that. I consider my investments before I make them. I encourage those who don't think this way to realize there are others like me out there that are willing to buy not only one card, but all of them for "X" price and control the market.

This is happening and it bugs me that no one else realizes it. I can't convince you all that this is right or wrong, but I'm telling you it's happening because I am doing it and will continue to do so.

[botn]

Not that you care but if you broke out your Cobbs I doubt any of the 4 would grade again.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by botn

Not that you care but if you broke out your Cobbs I doubt any of the 4 would grade again.

What about this one? It's a PSA 8 too. Would it grade again if cracked out?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by botn

Not that you care but if you broke out your Cobbs I doubt any of the 4 would grade again.

It all depends on who submits them.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by botn

Not that you care but if you broke out your Cobbs I doubt any of the 4 would grade again.

I think the Red Cobb would.

The others...