the list (of criminals) is revealed

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by Shoebox

Have been looking over the information in this document a lot through the day and while I was not directly affected by this I have a lot of thoughts I want to express.

1. Peter, seeing your name appear as a shill bidder was disappointing to me as I genuinely appreciate the knowledge, experience, and opinions you contribute to this community. However, I thank you for being willing to acknowledge your actions and face fallout from them. I respect you for doing that even if I think your actions were wrong. There are others that have much more to answer for but so far remain silent.

2.This is only a tiny portion of the fraud. 2 years worth of auctions by only one AH and this is only the transactions that someone with direct knowledge squealed on or confessed to having direct knowledge of the conspiracy. We know about Peter's because of conversations between the consignor and Maestro. How many agreements like that might have been reached that the AH didn't know about. I don't have to tell the AH that I am going to have a proxy place a protection bid on my consignment to keep from losing it at too low a price.

3. If a name appears as a shill bidder you placed a shill bid or one was placed under your name. The only way your name appears in that column was if there is direct evidence or testimony that the bid in question was part of the conspiracy. Some of the theories that some in that list may not be directly involved is in my opinion likely just wishful thinking.

4. The AH has an incentive to shill if there is a high max bid so it is possible for a consignor to have his lots shill bid without his involvement. However, when I see a board member appear as a consignor for 30 lots in this list and the names of the shill bidders only appears on their lots then I can make a pretty safe inference they were a willing participant in the fraud. If there is some other explanation for that JC Clarke I welcome you to offer it.

5. The occurrences I mention in 4 are present for Ken Goldin as well. So, there is a strong likelihood that he was involved in arranging shill bidding of several consignments to Maestro. If he is willing to participate in such actions in other auctions why should I have any confidence that he doesn't allow or even facilitate it in the auctions his AH runs? I hope Leon is already considering whether Goldin Auctions should continue to be allowed to advertise on this forum. I know I am unlikely to ever bid in one of their auctions.

I know I am just a bottom level collector and I don't have a spit's worth of significance in the collecting world but even a novice nobody like me can see that there are a whole lot more people than just the ones on this list that have dirt on their hands.

I agree
I'm going to unsubscribe to Goldin Auctions
Do I have to start a thread to ban myself?

[Jeffrompa]

Makes me want to open a pizza shop . It's kind of disturbing to the soul .

[1880nonsports]

overall pretty well said.
Peter I read most of your posts as they're generally threads of interest to me and I respect your thoughtful contributions much of the time. I think you made the wrong call back then - the climate was a bit different than it is now but your action has to be seen in the light as complicity in creating an artificial transaction. This is true whether or not you could see evidence of your bid's effects and it's impact. Frankly I'm surprised. Not an egregious act - done without ill intent - but in the arena of right vs. wrong - wrong. I don't think owning up with a caveat is the degree of response I'd expect from you but appreciate that you felt manning up was the way to go.........
As for Henny or Chad - my gut feeling is they were unwittingly exploited.
When one sees the actual scope reflected in but a small part of the hobby over a short period of time ON PAPER - it becomes very real. Everyone in the hobby pays the price so I think everyone should be pissed. That and my friends Marty and Glen Mechanick were shilled more than once. That makes it personal......

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

overall pretty well said.
Peter I read most of your posts as they're generally threads of interest to me and I respect your thoughtful contributions much of the time. I think you made the wrong call back then - the climate was a bit different than it is now but your action has to be seen in the light as complicity in creating an artificial transaction. This is true whether or not you could see evidence of your bid's effects and it's impact. Frankly I'm surprised. Not an egregious act - done without ill intent - but in the arena of right vs. wrong - wrong. I don't think owning up with a caveat is the degree of response I'd expect from you but appreciate that you felt manning up was the way to go.........
As for Henny or Chad - my gut feeling is they were unwittingly exploited.
When one sees the actual scope reflected in but a small part of the hobby over a short period of time ON PAPER - it becomes very real. Everyone in the hobby pays the price so I think everyone should be pissed. That and my friends Marty and Glen Mechanick were shilled more than once. That makes it personal......

Fair comment and I appreciate your perspective. As I told Gary, for better or worse I was not focused at all at the time on the potential for creating an artificial transaction. I don't remember now if as a general matter that had been flagged or not as a hobby issue but in any case not making any excuses. Points taken.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Jeffrompa

Makes me want to open a pizza shop . It's kind of disturbing to the soul .

There is no need to drag pizza into this. After all, we are not animals.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

I agree
I'm going to unsubscribe to Goldin Auctions
Do I have to start a thread to ban myself?

[Shoebox]

Since I called out one forum member by name for appearing as a consignor on a large number of lots all shill bid by the same person I should also point out that that is also true of forum member Greg Schwartz.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by Shoebox

Since I called out one forum member by name for appearing as a consignor on a large number of lots all shill bid by the same person I should also point out that that is also true of forum member Greg Schwartz.

Call em all out. Can't wait for the stories.

[D.P.Johnson]

What are the odds that the one and only time someone shills an auction they get caught???......