HOF is a Joke

[SAllen2556]

I would love to see a survey of mlb players who played during Trammell and Whitaker's era to see what they think. I have always gone back and forth, and I watched them both for 20 years. Same with Jack Morris. I thought I read once that Reggie Jackson thought Morris was the best pitcher of that era.

The Tigers had the 2nd most wins in all of baseball during the 80's and won it all in '84. Seems like someone on those teams would be hall-of-fame worthy. And I can't think of anyone who played for the Tigers in the 80's who's in the hall-of-fame.

[Joshchisox08]

Trammel and Whitaker aren't HOF players sorry.

[Laxcat]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Trammel and Whitaker aren't HOF players sorry.

We will see. With names like Santo and Mazeroski... I think Sweet Lou and Trammel will get their day with the Veterans Committee.

Now let's talk about Vern Stephens....

[Mountaineer1999]

I love the HOF. If they start putting in the likes of Trammell and Whitaker , they are going to have to put just about everybody in. Maybe Maz and other should not be enshrined but two wrongs dont make a right. If these Tigers are going in, I want Dave Parker and Al Oliver to follow

[baztacula]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

I love the HOF. If they start putting in the likes of Trammell and Whitaker , they are going to have to put just about everybody in. Maybe Maz and other should not be enshrined but two wrongs dont make a right. If these Tigers are going in, I want Dave Parker and Al Oliver to follow

Have you even looked at Whitaker's numbers? Many feel he was the 6th best second baseman in history. He crushes Mazeroski in every offensive category. Defensively, we can all pretend that Maz was magical but there is no way he was sooooo good in the field that he was the savior of his team.

Notice how Whitaker's stats just got better as time went on. He played 19 seasons and still retired too early, probably because of that stupid strike in 1994/95, which cut short his final seasons, both of which were among his best offensively.

The real crime is that Lou appeared on one ballot, never to appear again. This for a guy considered #6 all time at his position and #49 overall for position players.

[Mountaineer1999]

Originally Posted by baztacula

Have you even looked at Whitaker's numbers? Many feel he was the 6th best second baseman in history. He crushes Mazeroski in every offensive category. Defensively, we can all pretend that Maz was magical but there is no way he was sooooo good in the field that he was the savior of his team.

Notice how Whitaker's stats just got better as time went on. He played 19 seasons and still retired too early, probably because of that stupid strike in 1994/95, which cut short his final seasons, both of which were among his best offensively.

The real crime is that Lou appeared on one ballot, never to appear again. This for a guy considered #6 all time at his position and #49 overall for position players.

I did look at the stats before I posted. They were good but not HOF in my mind. Not sure how you come up with 6th best 2B, is that a new metric? How about:

Morgan
Hornsby
Collins
Robinson
Lajoie
Biggio
Carew
Alomar
Sandberg
Gehringer
Grich
Kent
Frisch ?
Doerr ?

[baztacula]

http://www.hallofstats.com/position/2b

[rats60]

Originally Posted by baztacula

Have you even looked at Whitaker's numbers? Many feel he was the 6th best second baseman in history. He crushes Mazeroski in every offensive category. Defensively, we can all pretend that Maz was magical but there is no way he was sooooo good in the field that he was the savior of his team.

Would you say the same about Ozzie Smith?

http://baseballhall.org/hof/mazeroski-bill

Bill Mazeroski is widely regarded as one of the best fielders the game has ever seen, at any position. Not only could he make the routine plays, but he could make plays no one else could and could make them look routine. Teammate Vern Law said, “Maz would constantly come up with balls we thought were base hits. You’re running over to back up a base and here Maz has got the ball and he’s throwing that hitter out.” Bill Virdon recalled what it was like playing behind him in center field. “The impressive thing about Maz was that he did everything at second base. I backed him up for six years and never got a ball,” Virdon said.

Teammate Bob Friend recalled, “He was one of a kind out there. Maz did so many things that never showed up in a box score.”

“Over 17 years, saving thousands of runs is like driving in thousands of runs. It’s the same thing. So, what’s the difference?”

"It's an honor just to be put in Maz's class. I don't mean to sound corny. For years, I've watched Maz make the tough play look easy. The way he makes the double play is a thing of beauty. "
– Glenn Beckert

http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/a5cc0d05

Years later Alley confessed that he was intimidated seeing Mazeroski take groundballs during spring training. He thought, “If you had to be that good in the majors, I’ll never make it!”

Bill was known for his quick feet around the bag but was also nicknamed “Tree Stump” because sliding baserunners usually were unable to take him out. Dave Giusti recalled the time a young Ron Stone of the Phillies went into second with intentions of taking Mazeroski out. As Giusti described it, Stone went in and upon contact, slowly melted into a clump and was rewarded with three broken ribs.

Mazeroski was that good defensively. Like I said before, I think Whitaker is a Hofer, but he is no where close to the 6th best 2B and he is not better than Mazeroski. I would take the runs he saved over the ones Whitaker created.

[baztacula]

Originally Posted by rats60

Would you say the same about Ozzie Smith?

http://baseballhall.org/hof/mazeroski-bill

Bill Mazeroski is widely regarded as one of the best fielders the game has ever seen, at any position. Not only could he make the routine plays, but he could make plays no one else could and could make them look routine. Teammate Vern Law said, “Maz would constantly come up with balls we thought were base hits. You’re running over to back up a base and here Maz has got the ball and he’s throwing that hitter out.” Bill Virdon recalled what it was like playing behind him in center field. “The impressive thing about Maz was that he did everything at second base. I backed him up for six years and never got a ball,” Virdon said.

Teammate Bob Friend recalled, “He was one of a kind out there. Maz did so many things that never showed up in a box score.”

“Over 17 years, saving thousands of runs is like driving in thousands of runs. It’s the same thing. So, what’s the difference?”

"It's an honor just to be put in Maz's class. I don't mean to sound corny. For years, I've watched Maz make the tough play look easy. The way he makes the double play is a thing of beauty. "
– Glenn Beckert

http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/a5cc0d05

Years later Alley confessed that he was intimidated seeing Mazeroski take groundballs during spring training. He thought, “If you had to be that good in the majors, I’ll never make it!”

Bill was known for his quick feet around the bag but was also nicknamed “Tree Stump” because sliding baserunners usually were unable to take him out. Dave Giusti recalled the time a young Ron Stone of the Phillies went into second with intentions of taking Mazeroski out. As Giusti described it, Stone went in and upon contact, slowly melted into a clump and was rewarded with three broken ribs.

Mazeroski was that good defensively. Like I said before, I think Whitaker is a Hofer, but he is no where close to the 6th best 2B and he is not better than Mazeroski. I would take the runs he saved over the ones Whitaker created.

I'm going to take it easy on you since you support Whitaker, which I respect. All I'll say is that if I was a Pirates fan during the Maz years, I'd groan every time he stepped up to the plate, just like Tigers fans did during the Brandon Inge era. Both were great defensively for sure. But that's not enough. In fact, Inge was arguably a better hitter than Maz (.685 OPS to .667 for Maz) and there is absolutely, positively no way in anyone's lifetime that Inge should get within 1000 miles of the Hall of Fame.

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

I love the HOF. If they start putting in the likes of Trammell and Whitaker , they are going to have to put just about everybody in. Maybe Maz and other should not be enshrined but two wrongs dont make a right. If these Tigers are going in, I want Dave Parker and Al Oliver to follow

Agree - Voting players in should be entirely independent of who is already in. You can benchmark candidates against HOF members all day long and come up with reasons for easily another 100 to get in. Maz was probably one that shouldn't have gotten in so when you compare him with guys like Trammell/Whitaker, it makes it odd that they aren't in, too.

Put them in (not talking specifically about Trammell/Whitaker) and you have a whole slew of others saying 'What about me?' As someone said earlier, a big problem is also allowing guys to stay on ballots for so many opportunities. I'd give players two initial years. If they don't get in, wait like ten years and give them one more shot with what would by then include some new voters. That's it.

Outside of unique cases (Rose) and the steroid group, when there's a fierce debate if someone should be in or not, they probably don't need to be there.

[sycks22]

I've never understood how a player can become a HOFer in their 13th or 14th year on the ballot, but not in the first 12 years. If you were a true hall of famer you shouldn't be voted in out of the fact that it was a weak ballot year.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by sycks22

I've never understood how a player can become a HOFer in their 13th or 14th year on the ballot, but not in the first 12 years. If you were a true hall of famer you shouldn't be voted in out of the fact that it was a weak ballot year.

Sometimes the way that their careers are looked at gain better perspective the longer away it is. Bert Blyleven's numbers came to be viewed in a much different way once sabermetric stats starting coming into vogue. I have the feeling that, if Lou Whitaker and Ted Simmons and (this year) Jim Edmonds had remained on the ballot beyond that first year, their numbers may have been looked at more closely in subsequent years and there could have been a ground swell similar to that which happened with The Flying Dutchman.

Tom C

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Laxcat

We will see. With names like Santo and Mazeroski... I think Sweet Lou and Trammel will get their day with the Veterans Committee.

Now let's talk about Vern Stephens....

Of course this would be biased then.......

What about Konerko? Border line numbers, won ALCS MVP, as well as a ring..... Can't say the same for Trammel or Whitaker

McGriff?
Baines?
Raines?
Larry Walker? (Please spare the whole Colorado crap)

[jiw98]

[QUOTE=Joshchisox08;1489060]Of course this would be biased then.......

What about Konerko? Border line numbers, won ALCS MVP, as well as a ring..... Can't say the same for Trammel or Whitaker

Your right, if I remember correctly Trammell didn't win an ALCS MVP, he won a World Series MVP with his ring....

[Econteachert205]

When I played rbi baseball on my Nintendo trammall and Whitaker were pretty good but Darrell Evans would get you a home run every time. So my vote is for him.


On a serious note i think the hall is too broken to be fixed and just needs to be enjoyed for what it is. The stuff is still cool, as is the building, ceremony and idea. I spent a lot of time as a kid studying to try to perfect a list with a statistics based cutoff. I realized at some point that it was impossible.

[baztacula]

Maz 2094 games at 2B
204 errors
.983 Fld%
5.72 Range Factor per 9 innings

Whitaker 2308 games at 2B
189 errors
.984 Fld%
5.39 Range Factor per 9 innings

I don't see where Mazeroski is the best fielding second baseman ever with those stats. There is a good chance that Maz's better range factor is directly related to more balls in play due to less k's by Pirate pitchers in the 50s, 60s & 70s compared to Tigers pitchers in the 70s, 80s and 90s.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Of course this would be biased then.......

What about Konerko? Border line numbers, won ALCS MVP, as well as a ring..... Can't say the same for Trammel or Whitaker

McGriff?
Baines?
Raines?
Larry Walker? (Please spare the whole Colorado crap)

A lone World Series ring and an ALCS MVP really carry no weight in Hall voting.

And, while I'm not the biggest fan of WAR, it's a good quick-reference starting place, and there's no way Paul Konerko and his 27.6 career WAR even sniff the Hall.

A 5.0 WAR or higher is considered an All Star season. Konerko's best seasons were a 4.7 (2010), a 4.0 (2005), and then a 2.9 (2006). Yes, his defense was terrible (career -18.9 dWAR), but his offense wasn't all that hot, either (career 32.6 oWAR). His numbers are clearly inflated by the era he played in.

Beyond WAR, he never led the league in any major statistic. He never won a Silver Slugger. He placed in the top 10 of MVP voting twice in a 17 year career.

JAWS has him as the 86th ranked first baseman of all-time. Pass.

And what's the "spare the Colorado crap" mean, that we should ignore the incredible boost hitters get at Coors?

In his MVP season of 1997, Larry Walker's splits were pretty even. But they started to veer off into the abyss after that.

In 1998, he won the NL batting title hitting .363. He hit .418 at home, and .300 on the road.
In 1998, he again won the NL batting title, hitting .379.
At Coors Field, he hit .461 with 26 HR and 71 RBI. His slash line was .531/.879/1.410.
Everywhere else, he hit .286 with 11 HR and 45 RBI. His slash was .375/.519/.894.

Yes, let's overlook that 516 point OPS disparity.

In 2001, Walker again won the NL batting title, hitting .350.
At Coors Field, he hit .406.
Everywhere else, he hit .293.

It's like whenever anybody says "oh, Carlos Gonzalez is one of the best hitters in the game!"

Hmm. In 2015, his splits:
At Coors, .293 AVG, 24 HR, 61 RBI, .355/.617/.972.
Everywhere else, .243 AVG, 16 HR, 36 RBI, ..294/.464/.758

Please.

[Topps206]

Coors is an aid, but the road splits determine if someone is merely a product of Coors or not.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by Laxcat

We will see. With names like Santo and Mazeroski... I think Sweet Lou and Trammel will get their day with the Veterans Committee.

Now let's talk about Vern Stephens....

Trammell and Whitaker were both great players and should be in but please don't mention Santo and Mazeroski in the same sentence. Maz got in based on his defense. Ron Santo was a great third baseman, both offensively and defensively.

[baztacula]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Trammel and Whitaker aren't HOF players sorry.

No they aren't. But they should be.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

The Tigers had the 2nd most wins in all of baseball during the 80's and won it all in '84. Seems like someone on those teams would be hall-of-fame worthy. And I can't think of anyone who played for the Tigers in the 80's who's in the hall-of-fame.

Well, they did originally sign John Smoltz, but they traded him to the Braves at the trade deadline in 1987 for Doyle Alexander, before he reached the majors. Alexander did go 9-0 with a 1.53 ERA down the stretch and help the Tigers win the AL East, but it didn't work out for them so well in the long term.

Smoltz was a local boy from East Lansing, Michigan, where I was living at the time, and when the Braves brought him up to the majors the following year, it made the local papers.

[z28jd]

If the Hall of Fame voters were all qualified for their job then 50.1% of the votes should be enough to get a player elected. The hall knows that all the voters aren't qualified and they don't give them a benefit of the doubt either, so they require 75%. The Hall of Fame ballot should come with a test first before you're allowed to vote.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I would love to see a survey of mlb players who played during Trammell and Whitaker's era to see what they think. I have always gone back and forth, and I watched them both for 20 years. Same with Jack Morris. I thought I read once that Reggie Jackson thought Morris was the best pitcher of that era.

The Tigers had the 2nd most wins in all of baseball during the 80's and won it all in '84. Seems like someone on those teams would be hall-of-fame worthy. And I can't think of anyone who played for the Tigers in the 80's who's in the hall-of-fame.

The guy with the best case at one time would have been Lance Parrish. He was a HOF level player until he got hurt in 86.