HOF is a Joke

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Laxcat

We will see. With names like Santo and Mazeroski... I think Sweet Lou and Trammel will get their day with the Veterans Committee.

Now let's talk about Vern Stephens....

Of course this would be biased then.......

What about Konerko? Border line numbers, won ALCS MVP, as well as a ring..... Can't say the same for Trammel or Whitaker

McGriff?
Baines?
Raines?
Larry Walker? (Please spare the whole Colorado crap)

[jiw98]

[QUOTE=Joshchisox08;1489060]Of course this would be biased then.......

What about Konerko? Border line numbers, won ALCS MVP, as well as a ring..... Can't say the same for Trammel or Whitaker

Your right, if I remember correctly Trammell didn't win an ALCS MVP, he won a World Series MVP with his ring....

[Econteachert205]

When I played rbi baseball on my Nintendo trammall and Whitaker were pretty good but Darrell Evans would get you a home run every time. So my vote is for him.


On a serious note i think the hall is too broken to be fixed and just needs to be enjoyed for what it is. The stuff is still cool, as is the building, ceremony and idea. I spent a lot of time as a kid studying to try to perfect a list with a statistics based cutoff. I realized at some point that it was impossible.

[baztacula]

Maz 2094 games at 2B
204 errors
.983 Fld%
5.72 Range Factor per 9 innings

Whitaker 2308 games at 2B
189 errors
.984 Fld%
5.39 Range Factor per 9 innings

I don't see where Mazeroski is the best fielding second baseman ever with those stats. There is a good chance that Maz's better range factor is directly related to more balls in play due to less k's by Pirate pitchers in the 50s, 60s & 70s compared to Tigers pitchers in the 70s, 80s and 90s.

[Mountaineer1999]

Originally Posted by baztacula

Maz 2094 games at 2B
204 errors
.983 Fld%
5.72 Range Factor per 9 innings

Whitaker 2308 games at 2B
189 errors
.984 Fld%
5.39 Range Factor per 9 innings

I don't see where Mazeroski is the best fielding second baseman ever with those stats. There is a good chance that Maz's better range factor is directly related to more balls in play due to less k's by Pirate pitchers in the 50s, 60s & 70s compared to Tigers pitchers in the 70s, 80s and 90s.

I think we know he was a better fielder because people who watched him play and played with him say he was one of the best ever.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Carew is a guy who the sabrmetrics are not kind to despite his wealth of batting titles, 3000 hits, and a very high average. On BR, where he is listed at second, he is only sixth.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by baztacula

Maz 2094 games at 2B
204 errors
.983 Fld%
5.72 Range Factor per 9 innings

Whitaker 2308 games at 2B
189 errors
.984 Fld%
5.39 Range Factor per 9 innings

I don't see where Mazeroski is the best fielding second baseman ever with those stats. There is a good chance that Maz's better range factor is directly related to more balls in play due to less k's by Pirate pitchers in the 50s, 60s & 70s compared to Tigers pitchers in the 70s, 80s and 90s.

How does Brooks do on fielding stats? I always suspect them because guys with great range are going to reach more balls but probably as a result commit more errors. And I don't know how you could account for this unless you had tape of every fielding chance. Maybe "range factor" somehow figures this in through some algorithm?

[baztacula]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How does Brooks do on fielding stats? I always suspect them because guys with great range are going to reach more balls but probably as a result commit more errors. And I don't know how you could account for this unless you had tape of every fielding chance. Maybe "range factor" somehow figures this in through some algorithm?

Range factor per nine innings is this: 9 x (putouts+assists)/inning played.

That's it. So if your pitching staff strikes out lots of batters, your fielders will have lower range factors... except for the catcher.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by baztacula

Maz 2094 games at 2B
204 errors
.983 Fld%
5.72 Range Factor per 9 innings

Whitaker 2308 games at 2B
189 errors
.984 Fld%
5.39 Range Factor per 9 innings

I don't see where Mazeroski is the best fielding second baseman ever with those stats. There is a good chance that Maz's better range factor is directly related to more balls in play due to less k's by Pirate pitchers in the 50s, 60s & 70s compared to Tigers pitchers in the 70s, 80s and 90s.

Total Zone Runs
Mazeroski 148 (22 more than 2nd best player)
Whitaker 77

Mlb Records for Double Plays 2B
Career: 1706 Mazeroski (Whitaker 1527)
Season 161 Mazeroski (Whitaker's best 120)
Seasons led league 8 Mazeroski (Whitaker never led AL)

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Of course this would be biased then.......

What about Konerko? Border line numbers, won ALCS MVP, as well as a ring..... Can't say the same for Trammel or Whitaker

McGriff?
Baines?
Raines?
Larry Walker? (Please spare the whole Colorado crap)

A lone World Series ring and an ALCS MVP really carry no weight in Hall voting.

And, while I'm not the biggest fan of WAR, it's a good quick-reference starting place, and there's no way Paul Konerko and his 27.6 career WAR even sniff the Hall.

A 5.0 WAR or higher is considered an All Star season. Konerko's best seasons were a 4.7 (2010), a 4.0 (2005), and then a 2.9 (2006). Yes, his defense was terrible (career -18.9 dWAR), but his offense wasn't all that hot, either (career 32.6 oWAR). His numbers are clearly inflated by the era he played in.

Beyond WAR, he never led the league in any major statistic. He never won a Silver Slugger. He placed in the top 10 of MVP voting twice in a 17 year career.

JAWS has him as the 86th ranked first baseman of all-time. Pass.

And what's the "spare the Colorado crap" mean, that we should ignore the incredible boost hitters get at Coors?

In his MVP season of 1997, Larry Walker's splits were pretty even. But they started to veer off into the abyss after that.

In 1998, he won the NL batting title hitting .363. He hit .418 at home, and .300 on the road.
In 1998, he again won the NL batting title, hitting .379.
At Coors Field, he hit .461 with 26 HR and 71 RBI. His slash line was .531/.879/1.410.
Everywhere else, he hit .286 with 11 HR and 45 RBI. His slash was .375/.519/.894.

Yes, let's overlook that 516 point OPS disparity.

In 2001, Walker again won the NL batting title, hitting .350.
At Coors Field, he hit .406.
Everywhere else, he hit .293.

It's like whenever anybody says "oh, Carlos Gonzalez is one of the best hitters in the game!"

Hmm. In 2015, his splits:
At Coors, .293 AVG, 24 HR, 61 RBI, .355/.617/.972.
Everywhere else, .243 AVG, 16 HR, 36 RBI, ..294/.464/.758

Please.

[Topps206]

Coors is an aid, but the road splits determine if someone is merely a product of Coors or not.