HOF is a Joke

[baztacula]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

I love the HOF. If they start putting in the likes of Trammell and Whitaker , they are going to have to put just about everybody in. Maybe Maz and other should not be enshrined but two wrongs dont make a right. If these Tigers are going in, I want Dave Parker and Al Oliver to follow

Have you even looked at Whitaker's numbers? Many feel he was the 6th best second baseman in history. He crushes Mazeroski in every offensive category. Defensively, we can all pretend that Maz was magical but there is no way he was sooooo good in the field that he was the savior of his team.

Notice how Whitaker's stats just got better as time went on. He played 19 seasons and still retired too early, probably because of that stupid strike in 1994/95, which cut short his final seasons, both of which were among his best offensively.

The real crime is that Lou appeared on one ballot, never to appear again. This for a guy considered #6 all time at his position and #49 overall for position players.

[Mountaineer1999]

Originally Posted by baztacula

Have you even looked at Whitaker's numbers? Many feel he was the 6th best second baseman in history. He crushes Mazeroski in every offensive category. Defensively, we can all pretend that Maz was magical but there is no way he was sooooo good in the field that he was the savior of his team.

Notice how Whitaker's stats just got better as time went on. He played 19 seasons and still retired too early, probably because of that stupid strike in 1994/95, which cut short his final seasons, both of which were among his best offensively.

The real crime is that Lou appeared on one ballot, never to appear again. This for a guy considered #6 all time at his position and #49 overall for position players.

I did look at the stats before I posted. They were good but not HOF in my mind. Not sure how you come up with 6th best 2B, is that a new metric? How about:

Morgan
Hornsby
Collins
Robinson
Lajoie
Biggio
Carew
Alomar
Sandberg
Gehringer
Grich
Kent
Frisch ?
Doerr ?

[baztacula]

http://www.hallofstats.com/position/2b

[rats60]

Originally Posted by baztacula

http://www.hallofstats.com/position/2b

I can't take that seriously when Jackie Robinson and Rod Carew are missing from that list.

[veleno45]

Originally Posted by rats60

I can't take that seriously when Jackie Robinson and Rod Carew are missing from that list.

+1

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by rats60

I can't take that seriously when Jackie Robinson and Rod Carew are missing from that list.

Robinson played just over half of his career games at second base, and Carew played less than half of his at second. I suspect that's why they're not on the list. Plus, Robinson only played 10 seasons, so if you're looking at career numbers (as this site apparently is), he's at a disadvantage to guys who played a full career, even though he played brilliantly during those 10 years.

[baztacula]

Originally Posted by rats60

I can't take that seriously when Jackie Robinson and Rod Carew are missing from that list.

-1

Did you even click the link?? That isn't "the list", it's the first few. It goes to 200. For 2B, Robinson is ranked #13 and Carew is listed as #8 at 1B because the majority of his games were there, just inching out games at second base.

If you have a problem with Robinson being #13, realize that he played only 10 seasons while Whitaker played 19. Blame the racists of the time for making Jackie wait until age 28 to get to the majors. At least he's in the Hall. Whitaker was dropped after being on just one lousy ballot.

[glchen]

The thing about Whitaker, and I know it looks like you really like him, but many of his playing years in the 80s were my prime baseball card collecting years as a kid. I know you are thinking that this is some kind of joke, but seriously, at that time, no one was stocking up on Lou Whitaker cards (and I grew up in Indiana, so I was still in the Midwest). Nobody was trading their crotchety Pete Rose cards for Whitaker or their other star cards. Heck, I think if you wanted to trade a Whitaker card for a Ron Cey card, there would be a lot of pause there on whether to give up the Cey card. Back then, everyone was stocking up on Pedro Guerrerro and Cecil Cooper before or course, Donnie Baseball came along. However, Whitaker during those days was just though of as a minor star, above a common, but no one was thinking that this guy was going to make the HOF.

And don't even get me started on this Bobby Grich guy that is getting resurrected in these threads. Of course, he was before my time, but I was lucky to inherit some of the cards from my older cousin, including that 1975 Topps Grich card that I distinctly remember still. Seriously, that guy was a complete common player when doing baseball card trades.

[baztacula]

Originally Posted by glchen

The thing about Whitaker, and I know it looks like you really like him, but many of his playing years in the 80s were my prime baseball card collecting years as a kid. I know you are thinking that this is some kind of joke, but seriously, at that time, no one was stocking up on Lou Whitaker cards (and I grew up in Indiana, so I was still in the Midwest). Nobody was trading their crotchety Pete Rose cards for Whitaker or their other star cards. Heck, I think if you wanted to trade a Whitaker card for a Ron Cey card, there would be a lot of pause there on whether to give up the Cey card. Back then, everyone was stocking up on Pedro Guerrerro and Cecil Cooper before or course, Donnie Baseball came along. However, Whitaker during those days was just though of as a minor star, above a common, but no one was thinking that this guy was going to make the HOF.

And don't even get me started on this Bobby Grich guy that is getting resurrected in these threads. Of course, he was before my time, but I was lucky to inherit some of the cards from my older cousin, including that 1975 Topps Grich card that I distinctly remember still. Seriously, that guy was a complete common player when doing baseball card trades.

Yeah because baseball card trades accurately predict who goes into the Hall. I'm sure you were stocking up on all future HOFers, the "big guns" like Gaylord Perry, Tony Perez, Paul Molitor, Dennis Eckersley, Billy Williams, Bruce Sutter, Phil Niekro, & Bert Blyleven. Everyone predicted they'd be enshrined.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by baztacula

Have you even looked at Whitaker's numbers? Many feel he was the 6th best second baseman in history. He crushes Mazeroski in every offensive category. Defensively, we can all pretend that Maz was magical but there is no way he was sooooo good in the field that he was the savior of his team.

Would you say the same about Ozzie Smith?

http://baseballhall.org/hof/mazeroski-bill

Bill Mazeroski is widely regarded as one of the best fielders the game has ever seen, at any position. Not only could he make the routine plays, but he could make plays no one else could and could make them look routine. Teammate Vern Law said, “Maz would constantly come up with balls we thought were base hits. You’re running over to back up a base and here Maz has got the ball and he’s throwing that hitter out.” Bill Virdon recalled what it was like playing behind him in center field. “The impressive thing about Maz was that he did everything at second base. I backed him up for six years and never got a ball,” Virdon said.

Teammate Bob Friend recalled, “He was one of a kind out there. Maz did so many things that never showed up in a box score.”

“Over 17 years, saving thousands of runs is like driving in thousands of runs. It’s the same thing. So, what’s the difference?”

"It's an honor just to be put in Maz's class. I don't mean to sound corny. For years, I've watched Maz make the tough play look easy. The way he makes the double play is a thing of beauty. "
– Glenn Beckert

http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/a5cc0d05

Years later Alley confessed that he was intimidated seeing Mazeroski take groundballs during spring training. He thought, “If you had to be that good in the majors, I’ll never make it!”

Bill was known for his quick feet around the bag but was also nicknamed “Tree Stump” because sliding baserunners usually were unable to take him out. Dave Giusti recalled the time a young Ron Stone of the Phillies went into second with intentions of taking Mazeroski out. As Giusti described it, Stone went in and upon contact, slowly melted into a clump and was rewarded with three broken ribs.

Mazeroski was that good defensively. Like I said before, I think Whitaker is a Hofer, but he is no where close to the 6th best 2B and he is not better than Mazeroski. I would take the runs he saved over the ones Whitaker created.

[baztacula]

Originally Posted by rats60

Would you say the same about Ozzie Smith?

http://baseballhall.org/hof/mazeroski-bill

Bill Mazeroski is widely regarded as one of the best fielders the game has ever seen, at any position. Not only could he make the routine plays, but he could make plays no one else could and could make them look routine. Teammate Vern Law said, “Maz would constantly come up with balls we thought were base hits. You’re running over to back up a base and here Maz has got the ball and he’s throwing that hitter out.” Bill Virdon recalled what it was like playing behind him in center field. “The impressive thing about Maz was that he did everything at second base. I backed him up for six years and never got a ball,” Virdon said.

Teammate Bob Friend recalled, “He was one of a kind out there. Maz did so many things that never showed up in a box score.”

“Over 17 years, saving thousands of runs is like driving in thousands of runs. It’s the same thing. So, what’s the difference?”

"It's an honor just to be put in Maz's class. I don't mean to sound corny. For years, I've watched Maz make the tough play look easy. The way he makes the double play is a thing of beauty. "
– Glenn Beckert

http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/a5cc0d05

Years later Alley confessed that he was intimidated seeing Mazeroski take groundballs during spring training. He thought, “If you had to be that good in the majors, I’ll never make it!”

Bill was known for his quick feet around the bag but was also nicknamed “Tree Stump” because sliding baserunners usually were unable to take him out. Dave Giusti recalled the time a young Ron Stone of the Phillies went into second with intentions of taking Mazeroski out. As Giusti described it, Stone went in and upon contact, slowly melted into a clump and was rewarded with three broken ribs.

Mazeroski was that good defensively. Like I said before, I think Whitaker is a Hofer, but he is no where close to the 6th best 2B and he is not better than Mazeroski. I would take the runs he saved over the ones Whitaker created.

I'm going to take it easy on you since you support Whitaker, which I respect. All I'll say is that if I was a Pirates fan during the Maz years, I'd groan every time he stepped up to the plate, just like Tigers fans did during the Brandon Inge era. Both were great defensively for sure. But that's not enough. In fact, Inge was arguably a better hitter than Maz (.685 OPS to .667 for Maz) and there is absolutely, positively no way in anyone's lifetime that Inge should get within 1000 miles of the Hall of Fame.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by baztacula

I'm going to take it easy on you since you support Whitaker, which I respect. All I'll say is that if I was a Pirates fan during the Maz years, I'd groan every time he stepped up to the plate, just like Tigers fans did during the Brandon Inge era. Both were great defensively for sure. But that's not enough. In fact, Inge was arguably a better hitter than Maz (.685 OPS to .667 for Maz) and there is absolutely, positively no way in anyone's lifetime that Inge should get within 1000 miles of the Hall of Fame.

Inge wasn't an elite defensive player. If it wasn't for his defense, Mazeroski wouldn't be close to the hof. Neither should Ozzie Smith, Brooks Robinson, Luis Aparicio or Rabbit Maranville. I get that you don't value defense, but many do, including the hof voters. If you are going to enshrine any player for their defense, then Mazeroski must be included.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Inge wasn't an elite defensive player. If it wasn't for his defense, Mazeroski wouldn't be close to the hof. Neither should Ozzie Smith, Brooks Robinson, Luis Aparicio or Rabbit Maranville. I get that you don't value defense, but many do, including the hof voters. If you are going to enshrine any player for their defense, then Mazeroski must be included.

Brooks had 2800 hits and some seasons with good power. I would not mention him in this list.

[doug.goodman]

A whole bunch of you guys think too much...


The game has been played for 150 years (give or take)

There have been 20,000 people involved (give or take)

There are 300 members of the Hall (give or take)

That seems like a pretty select group.


People in general can't agree on anything. Every day I see three cars at a four way stop have a hard time figuring out who should go next, so of course there are going to be some hits & misses with the exact selections to the best HOF of them all.

I'll let somebody else figure out the percentage of players in the football, basketball & hockey halls. I would would guess that each of them has more than baseball, proportionately.

Doug "I'm also thinking too much" Goodman

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

A whole bunch of you guys think too much...


The game has been played for 150 years (give or take)

There have been 20,000 people involved (give or take)

There are 300 members of the Hall (give or take)

That seems like a pretty select group.


People in general can't agree on anything. Every day I see three cars at a four way stop have a hard time figuring out who should go next, so of course there are going to be some hits & misses with the exact selections to the best HOF of them all.

I'll let somebody else figure out the percentage of players in the football, basketball & hockey halls. I would would guess that each of them has more than baseball, proportionately.

Doug "I'm also thinking too much" Goodman

To me the more relevant number would be how many make it of those who play 10 years or more.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Brooks had 2800 hits and some seasons with good power. I would not mention him in this list.

Why not? You think a guy who hit .267 while averaging 15 homers but with no gold gloves would get even a sniff at the HOF? Of course not. So, yeah, he belongs on that list.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Why not? You think a guy who hit .267 while averaging 15 homers but with no gold gloves would get even a sniff at the HOF? Of course not. So, yeah, he belongs on that list.

he did have 6 seasons with 20 plus HR nd 7 seasons with 80 plus RBI including two over 100 that's not bad for a third baseman just seemed to me in a different category than aparicio etc.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Brooks had 2800 hits and some seasons with good power. I would not mention him in this list.

OPS+ 104. That is not a hofer without his elite defensive.