HOF is a Joke

[RaidonCollects]

George Kelly...

[ksabet]

Its not the Hall...THE VETERANS COMMITTEE IS THE WORST THING IN THE HISTORY OF HALLS!!!

If it were up to me every single veterans committee inductee would have their own wing and not be considered a HOFer

There is absolutely no need for this. If you didn't get in when you were eligible thats it.

Can someone tell me seriously why this exists?

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by ksabet

Its not the Hall...THE VETERANS COMMITTEE IS THE WORST THING IN THE HISTORY OF HALLS!!!

If it were up to me every single veterans committee inductee would have their own wing and not be considered a HOFer

There is absolutely no need for this. If you didn't get in when you were eligible thats it.

Can someone tell me seriously why this exists?

I agree that the Veterans Committee is the worst thing that happened to the HOF historically. But, I think there should be some way of taking a 2nd look at players that didn't make the cut, for whatever reason.

In my mind, Tim Raines is a Hall of Famer, but might not make it through. Guys from the late 60's/early 70's voting like Hafey, Ferrell, George Kelly, Bancroft, Rixey should be pulled out of the Hall (as should Frankie Frisch for railroading all these players in).

[glchen]

Originally Posted by ksabet

Its not the Hall...THE VETERANS COMMITTEE IS THE WORST THING IN THE HISTORY OF HALLS!!!

If it were up to me every single veterans committee inductee would have their own wing and not be considered a HOFer

There is absolutely no need for this. If you didn't get in when you were eligible thats it.

Can someone tell me seriously why this exists?

The Veterans Committee exists because the baseball writers can be very biased. Seriously, it's common knowledge that writers won't vote for players for the HOF if the players wouldn't give them the time of day. Seriously, where in the criteria for the Hall of Fame does it say that you need to suck up to the writers? The writers should just vote based on the play on the field rather than the extracurricular stuff. One can argue that the Veteran's Committee has better voters because some of them are at least players already in the HOF.

[keithsky]

To me the HOF election process is a joke. If a player doesn't get in in say the first 3 years of eligibility then he should be out. His stats stopped when he stopped playing and don't get any better so how can a guy not get voted and then in 7,8,or 10 years later be all of a sudden good enough to be a HOFer. Makes absolutely no sense. Just cause maybe there is not a good class of guys for a certain year they seem to say this guy is ok since there isn't anybody good for the year so lets put him in. Give the guy 3 years on the ballet then maybe 2 years on the veterans committee and then your done. If you don't make it in 5 years that is enough. Why drag it out for 10 years or more.

[SAllen2556]

I would love to see a survey of mlb players who played during Trammell and Whitaker's era to see what they think. I have always gone back and forth, and I watched them both for 20 years. Same with Jack Morris. I thought I read once that Reggie Jackson thought Morris was the best pitcher of that era.

The Tigers had the 2nd most wins in all of baseball during the 80's and won it all in '84. Seems like someone on those teams would be hall-of-fame worthy. And I can't think of anyone who played for the Tigers in the 80's who's in the hall-of-fame.

[Joshchisox08]

Trammel and Whitaker aren't HOF players sorry.

[Laxcat]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Trammel and Whitaker aren't HOF players sorry.

We will see. With names like Santo and Mazeroski... I think Sweet Lou and Trammel will get their day with the Veterans Committee.

Now let's talk about Vern Stephens....

[Mountaineer1999]

I love the HOF. If they start putting in the likes of Trammell and Whitaker , they are going to have to put just about everybody in. Maybe Maz and other should not be enshrined but two wrongs dont make a right. If these Tigers are going in, I want Dave Parker and Al Oliver to follow

[baztacula]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

I love the HOF. If they start putting in the likes of Trammell and Whitaker , they are going to have to put just about everybody in. Maybe Maz and other should not be enshrined but two wrongs dont make a right. If these Tigers are going in, I want Dave Parker and Al Oliver to follow

Have you even looked at Whitaker's numbers? Many feel he was the 6th best second baseman in history. He crushes Mazeroski in every offensive category. Defensively, we can all pretend that Maz was magical but there is no way he was sooooo good in the field that he was the savior of his team.

Notice how Whitaker's stats just got better as time went on. He played 19 seasons and still retired too early, probably because of that stupid strike in 1994/95, which cut short his final seasons, both of which were among his best offensively.

The real crime is that Lou appeared on one ballot, never to appear again. This for a guy considered #6 all time at his position and #49 overall for position players.

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

I love the HOF. If they start putting in the likes of Trammell and Whitaker , they are going to have to put just about everybody in. Maybe Maz and other should not be enshrined but two wrongs dont make a right. If these Tigers are going in, I want Dave Parker and Al Oliver to follow

Agree - Voting players in should be entirely independent of who is already in. You can benchmark candidates against HOF members all day long and come up with reasons for easily another 100 to get in. Maz was probably one that shouldn't have gotten in so when you compare him with guys like Trammell/Whitaker, it makes it odd that they aren't in, too.

Put them in (not talking specifically about Trammell/Whitaker) and you have a whole slew of others saying 'What about me?' As someone said earlier, a big problem is also allowing guys to stay on ballots for so many opportunities. I'd give players two initial years. If they don't get in, wait like ten years and give them one more shot with what would by then include some new voters. That's it.

Outside of unique cases (Rose) and the steroid group, when there's a fierce debate if someone should be in or not, they probably don't need to be there.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Laxcat

We will see. With names like Santo and Mazeroski... I think Sweet Lou and Trammel will get their day with the Veterans Committee.

Now let's talk about Vern Stephens....

Of course this would be biased then.......

What about Konerko? Border line numbers, won ALCS MVP, as well as a ring..... Can't say the same for Trammel or Whitaker

McGriff?
Baines?
Raines?
Larry Walker? (Please spare the whole Colorado crap)

[jiw98]

[QUOTE=Joshchisox08;1489060]Of course this would be biased then.......

What about Konerko? Border line numbers, won ALCS MVP, as well as a ring..... Can't say the same for Trammel or Whitaker

Your right, if I remember correctly Trammell didn't win an ALCS MVP, he won a World Series MVP with his ring....

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Of course this would be biased then.......

What about Konerko? Border line numbers, won ALCS MVP, as well as a ring..... Can't say the same for Trammel or Whitaker

McGriff?
Baines?
Raines?
Larry Walker? (Please spare the whole Colorado crap)

A lone World Series ring and an ALCS MVP really carry no weight in Hall voting.

And, while I'm not the biggest fan of WAR, it's a good quick-reference starting place, and there's no way Paul Konerko and his 27.6 career WAR even sniff the Hall.

A 5.0 WAR or higher is considered an All Star season. Konerko's best seasons were a 4.7 (2010), a 4.0 (2005), and then a 2.9 (2006). Yes, his defense was terrible (career -18.9 dWAR), but his offense wasn't all that hot, either (career 32.6 oWAR). His numbers are clearly inflated by the era he played in.

Beyond WAR, he never led the league in any major statistic. He never won a Silver Slugger. He placed in the top 10 of MVP voting twice in a 17 year career.

JAWS has him as the 86th ranked first baseman of all-time. Pass.

And what's the "spare the Colorado crap" mean, that we should ignore the incredible boost hitters get at Coors?

In his MVP season of 1997, Larry Walker's splits were pretty even. But they started to veer off into the abyss after that.

In 1998, he won the NL batting title hitting .363. He hit .418 at home, and .300 on the road.
In 1998, he again won the NL batting title, hitting .379.
At Coors Field, he hit .461 with 26 HR and 71 RBI. His slash line was .531/.879/1.410.
Everywhere else, he hit .286 with 11 HR and 45 RBI. His slash was .375/.519/.894.

Yes, let's overlook that 516 point OPS disparity.

In 2001, Walker again won the NL batting title, hitting .350.
At Coors Field, he hit .406.
Everywhere else, he hit .293.

It's like whenever anybody says "oh, Carlos Gonzalez is one of the best hitters in the game!"

Hmm. In 2015, his splits:
At Coors, .293 AVG, 24 HR, 61 RBI, .355/.617/.972.
Everywhere else, .243 AVG, 16 HR, 36 RBI, ..294/.464/.758

Please.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by Laxcat

We will see. With names like Santo and Mazeroski... I think Sweet Lou and Trammel will get their day with the Veterans Committee.

Now let's talk about Vern Stephens....

Trammell and Whitaker were both great players and should be in but please don't mention Santo and Mazeroski in the same sentence. Maz got in based on his defense. Ron Santo was a great third baseman, both offensively and defensively.

[baztacula]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Trammel and Whitaker aren't HOF players sorry.

No they aren't. But they should be.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

The Tigers had the 2nd most wins in all of baseball during the 80's and won it all in '84. Seems like someone on those teams would be hall-of-fame worthy. And I can't think of anyone who played for the Tigers in the 80's who's in the hall-of-fame.

Well, they did originally sign John Smoltz, but they traded him to the Braves at the trade deadline in 1987 for Doyle Alexander, before he reached the majors. Alexander did go 9-0 with a 1.53 ERA down the stretch and help the Tigers win the AL East, but it didn't work out for them so well in the long term.

Smoltz was a local boy from East Lansing, Michigan, where I was living at the time, and when the Braves brought him up to the majors the following year, it made the local papers.

[z28jd]

If the Hall of Fame voters were all qualified for their job then 50.1% of the votes should be enough to get a player elected. The hall knows that all the voters aren't qualified and they don't give them a benefit of the doubt either, so they require 75%. The Hall of Fame ballot should come with a test first before you're allowed to vote.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I would love to see a survey of mlb players who played during Trammell and Whitaker's era to see what they think. I have always gone back and forth, and I watched them both for 20 years. Same with Jack Morris. I thought I read once that Reggie Jackson thought Morris was the best pitcher of that era.

The Tigers had the 2nd most wins in all of baseball during the 80's and won it all in '84. Seems like someone on those teams would be hall-of-fame worthy. And I can't think of anyone who played for the Tigers in the 80's who's in the hall-of-fame.

The guy with the best case at one time would have been Lance Parrish. He was a HOF level player until he got hurt in 86.

[bigtrain]

The Baseball Hall of Fame is imperfect but it is not a joke. It is the most exclusive in sports. No ten players at a time like in Canton. The Veteran's Committee has made some bad choices, notably when Frank Frisch and Bill Terry got seven of their teammates elected. Admittedly, there are probably two dozen players who I would remove from the Hall and most were put in by the Veteran's Committee but there have been some good choices as well. (ie. Sam Crawford, Zach Wheat, John Clarkson and others) The rules have changed and it is much more difficult to get in through the committee. That is as it should be.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

The Baseball Hall of Fame is imperfect but it is not a joke. It is the most exclusive in sports. No ten players at a time like in Canton. The Veteran's Committee has made some bad choices, notably when Frank Frisch and Bill Terry got seven of their teammates elected. Admittedly, there are probably two dozen players who I would remove from the Hall and most were put in by the Veteran's Committee but there have been some good choices as well. (ie. Sam Crawford, Zach Wheat, John Clarkson and others) The rules have changed and it is much more difficult to get in through the committee. That is as it should be.

I agree with this comment. Only 217 out of 18,336 MLB players in the HOF. They get it right more than any other HOF.