Timeline of Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis cards). Show us your Demmitt & O'Hara cards

[mybuddyinc]

"American Litho (ALC) started their 1st press run of POLAR BEAR (PB) cards circa Spring/Summer of 1910. ALC printed the PB backs on 140 subjects of
the 350-only Series.

The 2nd press run (circa Summer 1910) was a major one. ALC printed PB backs on the 64 subjects from the 350/460 Series. In this press run, it is my
contention that ALC printed the Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis variations.

Furthermore, this PB press run of 66 subjects was printed in greater quantities than the 350-only series (and the subsequent 460-only Series) printing
of PB cards. Proof of this theory is evident in T206 surveys, POP report data, and everyday Ebay listings of PB cards."

------------------

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it seems backwards to me. In my thinking it would fit better that the StL variations would have been done in the 1st press run of PB's circa Spring/Summer of 1910, when both players still might have been with StL. By the second PB run, about Summer 1910, both were in EL.

Also "if" they were from the 350/460 there would be more of them, if theory that 350/460 were produced in greater quantities.

As far as "How Many ??", don't know. It might be interesting to compare the 350 vs 350/460 run numbers. Maybe comparing the number of F. Smith or Kleinow, catching, 350 vs. 350/460.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by mybuddyinc

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it seems backwards to me. In my thinking it would fit better that the StL variations would have been done in the 1st press run of PB's circa Spring/Summer of 1910, when both players still might have been with StL. By the second PB run, about Summer 1910, both were in EL.

Also "if" they were from the 350/460 there would be more of them, if theory that 350/460 were produced in greater quantities.

As far as "How Many ??", don't know. It might be interesting to compare the 350 vs 350/460 run numbers. Maybe comparing the number of F. Smith or Kleinow, catching, 350 vs. 350/460.

1st......My "timeline" regarding the 1st printing of the POLAR BEAR backs on the 350-only Series cards may be somewhat off (this press run may have occurred earlier).
Whatever. But, the lesser quantity of PB cards (approx. 50 per subject) that were printed of the 350-only Series makes it improbable for the Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis
variations to belong in this print group.
The numbers of PB cards (150+ per subject) that were printed of many of the 350/460 Series guys closely coincides with the numbers of St. Louis versions of Demmitt
or O'Hara cards that are known.

2nd......Furthermore, in the subsequent printing of the T213-2 set (1914-16), both the Demmitt (New York) image and the Demmitt (St Louis) images were printed in
it. The production of this set utilized sheets printed originally in the T206 set. Therefore, I really doubt that both these Demmitt images were on the same sheet in the
same press run.






TED Z
.

[jp1216]

Sold my Demmitt, but this O'Hara is on BST....


I'd guess that at least 10% have been resubmitted or crossed over for the POP report numbers.

[mybuddyinc]

Originally Posted by tedzan

1st......My "timeline" regarding the 1st printing of the POLAR BEAR backs on the 350-only Series cards may be somewhat off (this press run may have occurred earlier).
Whatever. But, the lesser quantity of PB cards (approx. 50 per subject) that were printed of the 350-only Series makes it improbable for the Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis
variations to belong in this print group.
The numbers of PB cards (150+ per subject) that were printed of many of the 350/460 Series guys closely coincides with the numbers of St. Louis versions of Demmitt
or O'Hara cards that are known.

2nd......Furthermore, in the subsequent printing of the T213-2 set (1914-16), both the Demmitt (New York) image and the Demmitt (St Louis) images were printed in
it. The production of this set utilized sheets printed originally in the T206 set. Therefore, I really doubt that both these Demmitt images were on the same sheet in the
same press run.




TED Z
.

Thanks, Ted, that makes sense. I wasn't questioning your original statement, just read it some what incorrectly (which for me, isn't to hard ). You're numbers for 350 vs. 350/460 makes it all come together for me, and it makes perfect logic.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

My sales data support your premise that the populations of Demmitt (St. L) and O'Hara (St. L) are more in line with the Polar Bear (PB) populations of 350/460 regular print subjects than the PB populations of 350-only or 460-only subjects.

Generally speaking, the PB sales frequency of 350-only subjects is about 2X lower, and the PB sales frequency of 460-only subjects is some 4X lower, than the PB sales frequency of 350/460 regular print subjects [which, again, are in line with the Demmitt (St. L) and O’Hara (St. L) sales frequencies].

I'm not sure this leads inescapably to the conclusion that Demmit (St. L) and O'Hara (St. L) were printed contemporaneously with 350/460 regular print subjects, but I agree that this fact and the others you cite provide some circumstantial evidence.

[One reason I am hesitant to draw a firm conclusion is that several Midwestern subjects -- Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing) come to mind – seem to have been printed in much higher numbers with Polar Bear than other subjects from their subject groups. It seems to me not out of the realm of possibility that Midwestern bias, rooted in the fact that Polar Bear was sourced in Ohio, could help explain why Demmitt (St. L) and O’Hara (St. L) share the 350/460 regular print population profile].

On another front, I fully concur with you that there are more than 200 copies of each of these guys around – probably more like 300 per. When I “guesstimated” back in 2006 that there might be about 200 copies of each, my premise was that the Polar Bear population was roughly the same for all subjects with which that back exists. We now know that’s not true, and that Demmitt (St. Louis) and O’Hara (St. Louis) are “uncommonly common” with Polar Bear.

Best wishes this holiday season my friend.

Scot

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi Ted,

My sales data support your premise that the populations of Demmitt (St. L) and O'Hara (St. L) are more in line with the Polar Bear (PB) populations of 350/460 regular print subjects than the PB populations of 350-only or 460-only subjects.

Generally speaking, the PB sales frequency of 350-only subjects is about 2X lower, and the PB sales frequency of 460-only subjects is some 4X lower, than the PB sales frequency of 350/460 regular print subjects [which, again, are in line with the Demmitt (St. L) and O’Hara (St. L) sales frequencies].

I'm not sure this leads inescapably to the conclusion that Demmit (St. L) and O'Hara (St. L) were printed contemporaneously with 350/460 regular print subjects, but I agree that this fact and the others you cite provide some circumstantial evidence.

[One reason I am hesitant to draw a firm conclusion is that several Midwestern subjects -- Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing) come to mind – seem to have been printed in much higher numbers with Polar Bear than other subjects from their subject groups. It seems to me not out of the realm of possibility that Midwestern bias, rooted in the fact that Polar Bear was sourced in Ohio, could help explain why Demmitt (St. L) and O’Hara (St. L) share the 350/460 regular print population profile].

On another front, I fully concur with you that there are more than 200 copies of each of these guys around – probably more like 300 per. When I “guesstimated” back in 2006 that there might be about 200 copies of each, my premise was that the Polar Bear population was roughly the same for all subjects with which that back exists. We now know that’s not true, and that Demmitt (St. Louis) and O’Hara (St. Louis) are “uncommonly common” with Polar Bear.

Best wishes this holiday season my friend.

Scot

Well, we have always wondered where in the scheme of things the St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara were printed. I'm convinced that American Lithographic
included these two variations with the 350/460 Series POLAR BEAR print runs.

I really appreciate your independent analysis of your huge T206 survey which reinforces my research on this subject. And thanks for all the kind words regarding this.

Wishing you and your family a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year my good friend.


TED Z
.

[Jantz]

Nice cards!

I like how you can still see remnants of the "New York" on Ted's 213 Demmitt and Scott's T206 Demmitt (St. Louis).

[Pat R]

I think one explanation could be that the Polar Bears might have been printed
separately at one of ALC's other printing facilities, I just can't see any reason
in going through the trouble of making new plates for the team change just
for the Polar Bear printing, however if they were printed at a different facility
Demmitt and O'Hara could have been with ST Louis at the time they were making
the plates for this facility.