Timeline of Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis cards). Show us your Demmitt & O'Hara cards

[sreader3]

If one wants to delve further into speculation, one can imagine the following timeline:

T1: Original 350/460 sheet

• Printed with "350 Subjects" and assorted backs, including Polar Bear in limited quantities
• Includes J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• Does NOT include Demmitt (St. L), O’Hara (St. L.), “Extra” Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing)

T2: Midwestern 350/460 Derivative sheet

• Builds off Original 350/460 sheet
• Printed only with Polar Bear
• Replaces J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• With Demmitt (St. L), Kleinow (Boston), O’Hara (St. L.), Smith (Chi. & Bos.), “Extra” Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing) (maybe each 1.5X printed ???)

T2 (or T3?): Non-Midwestern 350/460 Derivative sheet

• Builds off Original 350/460 sheet
• Printed with "460 Subjects" and assorted backs
• Replaces J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• With Kleinow (Boston), Smith (Chi. & Bos.), ???, ???, ???

Scot

[sreader3]

As a final note of support for the "Midwestern bias" theory for Polar Bear, I would note that Factory 6 was in Middleton, Ohio (Luhrman & Wilburn Tobacco Company) -- about halfway between St. Louis and Cleveland.

[tedzan]

Hi Scot

Listed here are the current POP report (PSA + SGC) numbers of the following cards of Nicholls (batting)......

AB 350 ........... 10
DRUM ............... 2
EPDG .............. 14
OLD MILL .......... 8
POLAR BEAR .... 13
SOVEREIGN ..... 12
TOLSTOI ......... 12


I'm curious as to how these numbers compare with your survey ?









TED Z
.

[Thromdog]

Couple more......
polar.jpg

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Thromdog

Couple more......
Attachment 215240

Hi Jeff

Thanks for posting your Demmitt and O'Hara cards.

Unless I'm missing something, your Demmitt looks like it deserves better than an SGC 20 grade.


TED Z
.

[Thromdog]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Unless I'm missing something, your Demmitt looks like it deserves better than an SGC 20 grade.


TED Z
.

It's definitely "polar bear" dirty but has a slight loss above his ear. would probably get a 2-2.5 otherwise. My scanner hates graded cards.

I love the card though......

[Jantz]

Ted & Scot

Thank you once again for your willingness to share your knowledge and experience. It is appreciated.

Ted

I should have known that you would have a Nichols (batting) with a PB back. And its a beauty as well!

No O'Hara yet, but here is my Demmitt.

Jantz

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Scot

Listed here are the current POP report (PSA + SGC) numbers of the following cards of Nicholls (batting)......

AB 350 ........... 10
DRUM ............... 2
EPDG .............. 14
OLD MILL .......... 8
POLAR BEAR .... 13
SOVEREIGN ..... 12
TOLSTOI ......... 12


I'm curious as to how these numbers compare with your survey?

TED Z
.

Hi Ted, Have been away from the board for a couple of days. I'll see what I can track down re Nichols pops. Scot

[sreader3]

AB 350 ........... 0
DRUM ............ 0
EPDG ............. 3
OLD MILL ........ 3
POLAR BEAR .... 4
SOVEREIGN ..... 4
TOLSTOI ......... 3

For comparison:

PIEDMONT 350 .... 43
SWEET CAPORAL 350 .... 44

Seems pretty proportionate to your data except I didn't see any AB 350s during 2008 - 2013 time frame.

[tedzan]

Do you really mean........

AB 350......... 7- 3 = 10
Drum......... 0- 2 = 2
EPDG......... 10- 5 = 15
Old Mill......... 5- 4 = 9
Polar Bear......... 4- 9 = 13
Sov 350......... 5- 7- = 12
Tolstoi........ 7- 7 = 14


Then thanks for confirming my numbers. The slight difference on a couple of your #'s vs. my #'s is most likely because your's are more current than mine.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

AB 350 ........... 0
DRUM ............ 0
EPDG ............. 3
OLD MILL ........ 3
POLAR BEAR .... 4
SOVEREIGN ..... 4
TOLSTOI ......... 3

For comparison:

PIEDMONT 350 .... 43
SWEET CAPORAL 350 .... 44

Seems pretty proportionate to your data except I didn't see any AB 350s during 2008 - 2013 time frame.

Thanks Scot for this data on Nicholls.

If my recollection is accurate, you have one of the nicest Nicholls / AB 350 cards that I have seen. I have been trying to acquire an upgrade on my Nicholls / AB 350 cards for over 9
years and haven't found one yet.

Furthermore, your numbers regarding Nicholls with AB 350 and DRUM backs appear to support my theory that he was removed early in the press runs of those 2 backs and replaced
with Jake Stahl.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Do you really mean........

AB 350......... 7- 3 = 10
Drum......... 0- 2 = 2
EPDG......... 10- 5 = 15
Old Mill......... 5- 4 = 9
Polar Bear......... 4- 9 = 13
Sov 350......... 5- 7- = 12
Tolstoi........ 7- 7 = 14


Then thanks for confirming my numbers. The slight difference on a couple of your #'s vs. my #'s is most likely because your's are more current than mine.



TED Z
.

Ted,

Yes, your pop report numbers are correct with the exception of a few SGC
examples that have the Nicholls spelling on the grading label instead of
Nichols which is correct for the batting version.

Here are two Tolstois, one of each spelling.
http://photos.imageevent.com/patrick...%20Tolstoi.png

http://photos.imageevent.com/patrick...%20Tolstoi.png

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Scot

Listed here are the current POP report (PSA + SGC) numbers of the following cards of Nicholls (batting)......

AB 350 ........... 10
DRUM ............... 2
EPDG .............. 14
OLD MILL .......... 8
POLAR BEAR .... 13
SOVEREIGN ..... 12
TOLSTOI ......... 12







TED Z
.

Ted,

SGC has a few Nichols (batting) listed as Nicholls (batting) in their pop reports
namely two Tolstoi's and one each of Old Mill and EPDG.

This is what the current SGC and PSA pop reports show.


PSA SGC Total


AB 350......... 7- 3- 10
Drum......... 0- 2- 2
EPDG......... 10- 5- 15
Old Mill......... 5- 4- 9
Polar Bear......... 4- 9- 13
Sov 350......... 5- 7- 12
Tolstoi........ 7- 7- 14

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

If one wants to delve further into speculation, one can imagine the following timeline:

T1: Original 350/460 sheet

• Printed with "350 Subjects" and assorted backs, including Polar Bear in limited quantities
• Includes J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• Does NOT include Demmitt (St. L), O’Hara (St. L.), “Extra” Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing)

T2: Midwestern 350/460 Derivative sheet

• Builds off Original 350/460 sheet
• Printed only with Polar Bear
• Replaces J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• With Demmitt (St. L), Kleinow (Boston), O’Hara (St. L.), Smith (Chi. & Bos.), “Extra” Joss (Pitching) and Willis (Throwing) (maybe each 1.5X printed ???)

T2 (or T3?): Non-Midwestern 350/460 Derivative sheet

• Builds off Original 350/460 sheet
• Printed with "460 Subjects" and assorted backs
• Replaces J. Doyle, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), Nichols (Batting), Rhoades (Arm Extended), Smith (Chi. White Cap)
• With Kleinow (Boston), Smith (Chi. & Bos.), ???, ???, ???

Scot

I like your "Midwestern POLAR BEAR distribution" theory; and, I think it needs to extend to include Detroit.

Check-out your numbers for both Cobb's (red and batting). American Lithograph must have double-printed
or triple-printed these subjects with the POLAR BEAR (PB) backs.

Also, I am curious about your numbers regarding Crawford and the two Jennings cards with PB backs. Plus
Mullin, O'Leary, and Willetts with PB backs.


Furthermore, perhaps we should also consider the 12 subjects (with PB) of the two Chicago teams ?


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

I am happy to provide your requested data when I return to the office. But I don't think I would extend my working theory to Detroit. Under my working theory, there were five 350/460 subjects removed from production early:

Doyle (N.Y.) reason = team caption error
Nichols (Batting) reason = retirement after a few games played with Cleveland
Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) reason = trade to Boston
Rhoades (Right Arm Extended) reason = retirement after 1909 from Cleveland
Smith (Chi. White Cap) reason = trade to Boston

And there were four undisputed 350/460 subjects added:

Demmitt (St. Louis) reason - trade to St. Louis (Polar Bear only)
Kleinow (Boston) reason = trade to Boston
O'Hara (St. Louis) reason = trade to St. Louis (Polar Bear only)
Smith (Chicago & Boston) reason = trade to Boston

So the emphasis is on St. Louis, Cleveland -- and I suppose Boston.

Perhaps the transition was as follows ???

Midwestern sheet (Polar Bear only)

Doyle --> Joss/Willis (extra-print)
Kleinow (N.Y.) --> Kleinow (Boston)
Nichols --> Demmitt
Rhoades --> O'Hara
Smith (Chi.) --> Smith (Chi. & Boston)

Non-Midwestern sheet

Doyle --> Stahl
Kleinow (N.Y.) --> Kleinow (Boston)
Nichols --> ???
Rhoades --> ???
Smith (Chi.) --> Smith (Chi. & Boston)

Scot

EDITED TO ADD: As for Cobb (Red) being printed in large quantities with Polar Bear, I can say that ALL of the 6 superprints were printed in large quantities with Polar Bear. I believe this to be a superprint phenomenon, not a Detroit-specific phenomenon.

[tedzan]

Hi Scot

Illustrated in my 72-card simulation sheet of the original 66 subjects in the 350/460 Series are the 6 super-prints Double Printed. So, I agree with you that the large quantities of the red Cobb
are accounted for.

But, how do we account for the large quantities of the Cobb (bat off shoulder) which, in my research, are approx. equal to that of the red Cobb ?


v.................................... Six super-prints ....................................v









TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Hi Ted,

Great display -- love the simulation sheet.

In my dataset:

Cobb (Red), Polar Bear, N = 110
Cobb (Bat Off), Polar Bear, N = 63

The Cobb (Red) data are in-line with other superprints.

The Cobb (Bat Off) data are in-line with other non-superprint HOFers.

So my dataset does not show a Detroit-specific phenomenon.

Hope you are having a wonderful Christmas.

Scot

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi Ted,

Great display -- love the simulation sheet.

In my dataset:

Cobb (Red), Polar Bear, N = 110
Cobb (Bat Off), Polar Bear, N = 63

The Cobb (Red) data are in-line with other superprints.

The Cobb (Bat Off) data are in-line with other non-superprint HOFers.

So my dataset does not show a Detroit-specific phenomenon.

Hope you are having a wonderful Christmas.

Scot

Hi Scot

The data I have regarding the Cobb (bat off shoulder) card is approx. 75 % of the Cobb (red portrait) card. I think my higher numbers are most likely due
to grading "re-submissions" for the Cobb (bat off) card over a long period of time.

Thanks, we had a nice Christmas family gathering yesterday. My younger Daughter, Zoe, arrived from Santa Monica (CA). Our Grandson, Ron, drove down
from Maine. My Sister's family joined us. But, we really, really miss our older Daughter, Debbie.

Hope you and your Family are having a wonderful Christmas. Best Wishes to you for a Happy New Year


TED Z
.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by tedzan

But, we really, really miss our older Daughter, Debbie.


TED Z
.

My heart goes out to you my friend. Peace be with you and your family.