Is Dahlen a lock ????? VS others at position why not ??

[Topps206]

I wish for more reforms to the VC. Keep it to writers and historians.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Topps206

I wish for more reforms to the VC. Keep it to writers and historians.

I think their problem is they want voters there that the public knows, yet most of them have zero business being there. You would have no trouble finding a group of 16 voters that could do a better job

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I think their problem is they want voters there that the public knows, yet most of them have zero business being there. You would have no trouble finding a group of 16 voters that could do a better job

That's for sure, but the public and many others, need to be educated.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I think their problem is they want voters there that the public knows, yet most of them have zero business being there. You would have no trouble finding a group of 16 voters that could do a better job

One could play devils advocate here as well. If there were baseball historians voting they'd probably want to vote everyone in

I know there are a lot of players I'd personally like to vote in. Scott mentioned Danny Murphy being one of his and I'd vote for him. Van Halteren, Konetchy, etc.

The question again I ask is do these voters actually know who they are voting for??

[Topps206]

The historians really know their stuff. What I would have given to be one of those 16 voters. Then I would have been verbally repulsed by the other members who closed the doors to worthy candidates.

[scotgreb]

It appears that Dahlen's timing was unlucky . . .

He was closer three years ago when Ruppert, ODay, and White took a substantial amount of the votes.

You would think it would be hard to go backwards on a ballot with no one elected but he came before a different voting electorate this year (albeit with some of the same committee members).

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by scotgreb

It appears that Dahlen's timing was unlucky . . .

He was closer three years ago when Ruppert, ODay, and White took a substantial amount of the votes.

You would think it would be hard to go backwards on a ballot with no one elected but he came before a different voting electorate this year (albeit with some of the same committee members).

Perhaps the same voters who voted for him last time are back but there are those who didn't.

They'll get it right one of these years.

[tbob]

Was Turkey Mike Donlin even on the ballot?????

[David W]

Originally Posted by packs

I'd like to know what qualifies a player to vote on something like a pre-integration ballot. What kind of insight could Bobby Cox or Phil Niekro possibly have re: Stovey and Dahlen? It should only be historians voting on these ballots.

Yes, on players who haven't played in 75-100 years, and have been dead for 50, only a select group should evaluate them.

That being said, they have had 80 years to get in the HOF, and did not make it so I would say enough, no more HOF'ers from the long ago past.

I mean, in the year 2116, will there be a huge push for Omar Vizquel? or Steve Garvey? or Dale Murphy? Or Tori Hunter? It's the same sort of thing, all have some HOF credentials, got some votes, but didn't get in when evaluated by their peers.

[packs]

I don't that's true though. For example, in 1936 Stovey had already been retired for 40 years. He received 7 percent of the vote, but how many of the voters had seen him play or were that well versed in his career?

Now we have the luxury of hindsight and thorough research. I would argue that it is the opposite. Now is the time to re-evaluate the careers of early players who may have been forgotten by their peers.

[Klrdds]

It doesn't matter . No one got elected... What a disgrace to baseball!!!

[GaryPassamonte]

This is a travesty. The 19th century players are underrepresented in the HOF. Until the selecting and voting committees are comprised of baseball historians that know the game and its history, similar outcomes will continue. Also, the pre-integration era is too long of a period of time. At a minimum, there should be separate pre and post 1900 eras.

[Klrdds]

For many years I have advocated a 5 category Veterans Committee breakdown instead of the present 3 category. Unfortunately it continues to fall on deaf ears.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by David W

Yes, on players who haven't played in 75-100 years, and have been dead for 50, only a select group should evaluate them.

That being said, they have had 80 years to get in the HOF, and did not make it so I would say enough, no more HOF'ers from the long ago past.

I mean, in the year 2116, will there be a huge push for Omar Vizquel? or Steve Garvey? or Dale Murphy? Or Tori Hunter? It's the same sort of thing, all have some HOF credentials, got some votes, but didn't get in when evaluated by their peers.

The problem with this logic is that the HoF didn't exist until 1936 and the first 4-5 years they mainly were electing only the absolute best players and few 19th century guys. I have no problem with modern players having a time limit as suggested but someone like Harry Stovey had been retired and out of baseball for 40-50 years (adams nearly 80 years) before he realistically had a shot at the HOF so no way to compare Stovey, Dahlen, Doc Adams to someone like Alan Trammell.

[rhettyeakley]

I have often wondered if the HoF had been started in 1895 or so who would have been elected to the HOF? I think there would be some really surprising inductions.

I remember reading an ancient article asking several 19th Century & early 20th Century players who they thought were the best players of all time and while most of the names were pretty familiar, the name that was on a surprising number of lists was Ned Williamson and he gets absolutely no consideration.

It is an interesting question that is fun to debate with knowledgable baseball historians!

[Topps206]

I'd love an explanation from those who actually voted.

[tedzan]

Jack Glasscock and Bill Dahlen are long overdue candidates for the HOF.











Lefty O'Doul is another long overdue candidate for the HOF. How does a guy whose 11-year career BA = .349 not be in the BB HOF ?
I do not understand this. Can anyone on this forum explain why this is so ? ?

Furthermore, check out Lefty's 1929 numbers with the Phillies......

154 Games
638 AB
254 Hits
.398 BA
32 = HR
152 Runs
122 RBI
.465 OBP
.622 SLG

The following year (1930) with the Phillies, Lefty hit for a .383 BA with 202 Hits, and 37 HR's.

I guess that's why he's smiling in this photo (circa 1930) wearing a Phillies uniform.



TED Z
.

[Topps206]

I love the Dahlen Brooklyn.

[bn2cardz]

Lefty O'Doul is not a HOF player.

He played parts of 13 seasons, but only 6 seasons did he get more than 100 games played. 4 seasons he was used as a pitcher, but only got 34 games with 1 start in 77.2 innings pitched. His ERA in that time was 4.87 and gave up 104 hits.

He only has 970 games to his career and 811 of them came from a 6 year span. He essentially had 3 good seasons as a LF 1929, 1930, and 1932. In the 811 games he played between 1928 - 1933 his stats would look HOF caliber, but he just didn't have a full career to warrant HOF induction.

[packs]

He is a HOFer as much as anyone else. He was part of the game for 30 plus years and is a major reason we have Japanese players in Major League Baseball. O'Doul should be elected as a contributor of the game. His influence on it has been multi-national and he is one of the few people to achieve something like that.

[z28jd]

Lefty O'Doul had some great years, but 1929-30 are huge years for offense in baseball and four of his other seasons, he had a combined 72 at-bats. He just didn't play enough. His most comparable player all-time is Rusty Greer according to baseball similarity scores, which looks at their overall contribution. He has zero chance of making the Hall of Fame with those credentials. He needed another 4-5 years in the majors instead of toiling in the PCL

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by packs

He is a HOFer as much as anyone else. He was part of the game for 30 plus years and is a major reason we have Japanese players in Major League Baseball. O'Doul should be elected as a contributor of the game. His influence on it has been multi-national and he is one of the few people to achieve something like that.

I guess I should have clarified he shouldn't be inducted as a player. That is what I was refuting since it was his playing stats that were brought up two posts prior to mine.

[Joshchisox08]

Tony Mullane:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ullato01.shtml

George Van Haltren:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...anhage01.shtml


To be honest I would have voted Dahlen and that's it because with the exception of Wes Ferrell (who isn't a HOF player) I don't know who anyone else was to be educated enough to vote for. Maybe this is how the voters vote................

[tedzan]

Three insignificant years of MLB, and 20 years as a Manager.


While, O'Doul had 11 years of better than average playing as a Major Leaguer, and 20 very successful years as a Manager in the PCL.

During that time, Lefty was responsible for many great Major League ballplayers (especially from the SF Seals).

I could say a lot more on this subject....but, it will only stir up turbulence


TED Z
.

[Topps206]

I have no qualms with Lefty O'Doul, but what's the problem with Lasorda?

[packs]

I think he's making an inclusion argument. If one then the other. I have to agree too. It makes no sense to put Lasorda in for his service time as a manager and not O'Doul, even if O'Doul's service was at the minor league level.

[tazdmb]

Here is a quote from Blyleven on the research he did:

"You do as much research as you can," Blyleven said. "I know all the research I did on Wikipedia.

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_...tes-just-didnt

This is the biggest issue, IMHO

[Topps206]

I don't see why we can't have both.

Here's whom I would propose for the next pre-integration ballot in 2018

Bill Dahlen
Harry Stovey
Doc Adams
Gavvy Cravath
Ross Barnes
Sherry Magee
Lefty O'Doul
Jack Glasscock
Tony Mullane
Bob Caruthers

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by tazdmb

Here is a quote from Blyleven on the research he did:

"You do as much research as you can," Blyleven said. "I know all the research I did on Wikipedia.

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_...tes-just-didnt

This is the biggest issue, IMHO

This goes beyond wiki. Not all 10 were 1qualified. Not a chance Marty Marion is anywhere near as qualified as Dahlen.

[packs]

Even if you only used Wiki, how do you not vote for a guy like Stovey or Dahlen? Their pages quite literally tell you they are amongst the greatest players not in the HOF.

[Topps206]

We don't know who Blyleven voted for. It's the eight who didn't vote these players that need questioning.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by packs

Even if you only used Wiki, how do you not vote for a guy like Stovey or Dahlen? Their pages quite literally tell you they are amongst the greatest players not in the HOF.

DITTO

Back in the early 1990's, I was hoarding Dahlen's cards, for I thought for sure he would have been inducted back then by the Veteran's Committee (such as Vic Willis was in 1995).



I'll mention another candidate that may stir up some controversy here......Gil Hodges. You can check out all Gil's stats and stories in BB Ref. or Wiki; however, I saw him play from
1949 to 1963. Trust me, if you had seen Gil play, you too would wonder why he's not in the HOF.

During the decade of the 1950's, Gil lead all MLB 1st basemen in Hits, HR's RBI's, AB's, and extra-base hits. Gil was one of the finest fielding 1st basemen's in the '50s, which won
him the Golden Gloves the first 3 years they were awarded (1957-59).


TED Z
.

[Topps206]

I'm unimpressed by the low OPS+ for Hodges at his position and at Ebbets.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Topps206

I'm unimpressed by the low OPS+ for Hodges at his position and at Ebbets.

Did you see him play the game ?

I doubt it !

For if you had, you wouldn't make such a negative remark.....when there are a great number of significant stats in Gil's career.


TED Z
.

[GregMitch34]

I love that very marginal HOFers Blyleven and Niekro passing judgment on others they haven't even seen play. Too bad Drysdale is gone, he could have joined them.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

I love that very marginal HOFers Blyleven and Niekro passing judgment on others they haven't even seen play. Too bad Drysdale is gone, he could have joined them.

IMO neither of those are HOF player especially Blyleven.

[Topps206]

I think Blyleven belongs, but who is he to hold anyone back after he waited more than a decade?

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Did you see him play the game ?

I doubt it !

For if you had, you wouldn't make such a negative remark.....when there are a great number of significant stats in Gil's career.


TED Z
.

Ted,
I agree 100%. Sometimes I wonder if I should not have been born in the 1940s for the sole purpose of visiting Ebbetts Field and seeing the great Dodgers play.
Hodges is a no brainer for those of us who love baseball and root for a player who is beloved by other players but for the powers that be they just don't get it.
Hodges was also an incredible gentleman and a very humble player.
The direct opposite of Dahlen I might add!

Peace, Mike

PS I'm jealous Ted that you have seen Mr. Hodges up close and personal!

[Topps206]

It's all about the numbers, not character, for me. If Hodges played second, short or catcher, I too would be calling for his election. It's position adjustment and I'm not impressed.

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by Topps206

It's all about the numbers, not character, for me. If Hodges played second, short or catcher, I too would be calling for his election. It's position adjustment and I'm not impressed.

If you can't appreciate Gil Hodges you are not really impressing me with your knowledge of baseball history.

Need I add that Mr. Hodges was as an anti-aircraft gunner in WW2 and most notably Okinawa. He was also the recipient of a Bronze Star Medal with Combat "V" for heroism under fire.

I really do not understand how character means nothing for you? Oh, by the way, best defensive 1B of his day. So many stats to chew on and awards also. Oh yeah, he was the Mets World Championship Manager in 1969.

He was a pure player and pure American. The Hall of Fame could use an icon like him. Actually the Mets Hall of Fame does have Gil inducted. Time for Cooperstown to open the doors.

Peace, Mike

PS Here are some quotes and notations from some notables about Gil:

"Not getting booed at Ebbets Field was an amazing thing. Those fans knew their baseball, and Gil was the only player I can remember whom the fans never, I mean never, booed."—Clem Labine

"...epitomizes the courage, sportsmanship and integrity of America's favorite pastime."—back of a 1966 Topps baseball card.

"Gil Hodges is a Hall of Fame man."—Roy Campanella

"If you had a son, it would be a great thing to have him grow up to be just like Gil Hodges."—Pee Wee Reese

"Gil Hodges is a Hall of Famer; he deserves it and it's a shame his family and friends have had to wait so long."—Duke Snider

"He [Hodges] was such a noble character in so many respects that I believe Gil to have been one of the finest men I met in sports or out if it."—Arthur Daley, The New York Times.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

Ted,
I agree 100%. Sometimes I wonder if I should not have been born in the 1940s for the sole purpose of visiting Ebbetts Field and seeing the great Dodgers play.
Hodges is a no brainer for those of us who love baseball and root for a player who is beloved by other players but for the powers that be they just don't get it.
Hodges was also an incredible gentleman and a very humble player.
The direct opposite of Dahlen I might add!

Peace, Mike

PS I'm jealous Ted that you have seen Mr. Hodges up close and personal!

Thanks for your kind words.

I grew up as an avid Yankees fan; and, the first BB game I was at was in the Summer of 1950 at Yankee Stadium. Between my cousins and my neighbors,
I went to quite a few games in the Bronx.

But, I will tell you that the most exciting game I was at in my youth was at Ebbets Field in Sept. 1951. Giants vs Dodgers....and at that point in the season
the Giants were gaining on the 1st place Dodgers.

This game was a real pitching duel, the score at the start of the 9th inning was 1-0, Dodgers. The Giants led off with a Walk and a Hit. The next batter was
Bobby Thomson, who drove the ball to left-center field. The guy on 2nd scored easily to tie the game. The guy on 1st made a run for home-plate. A cloud
of dust formed when he slid home. The Umpire signaled the OUT call. Then in a split second, he switches to a SAFE call. It was pure bedlam in Ebbets Field.
The Ump was bombarded with all kinds of stuff thrown at him from the stands.

Apparently, the Runner must of kicked the ball out of Roy Campanella's glove. The Giants went on to win the game....and the rest of the season is (as they
say) history.

The decade of the 1950's in BB was a tremendous time to be growing up (especially if you lived in the New York, New Jersey, Philadelphia area).


Take care,

TED Z
.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

If you can't appreciate Gil Hodges you are not really impressing me with your knowledge of baseball history.

Need I add that Mr. Hodges was as an anti-aircraft gunner in WW2 and most notably Okinawa. He was also the recipient of a Bronze Star Medal with Combat "V" for heroism under fire.

I really do not understand how character means nothing for you? Oh, by the way, best defensive 1B of his day. So many stats to chew on and awards also. Oh yeah, he was the Mets World Championship Manager in 1969.

He was a pure player and pure American. The Hall of Fame could use an icon like him. Actually the Mets Hall of Fame does have Gil inducted. Time for Cooperstown to open the doors.

Peace, Mike

PS Here are some quotes and notations from some notables about Gil:

"Not getting booed at Ebbets Field was an amazing thing. Those fans knew their baseball, and Gil was the only player I can remember whom the fans never, I mean never, booed."—Clem Labine

"...epitomizes the courage, sportsmanship and integrity of America's favorite pastime."—back of a 1966 Topps baseball card.

"Gil Hodges is a Hall of Fame man."—Roy Campanella

"If you had a son, it would be a great thing to have him grow up to be just like Gil Hodges."—Pee Wee Reese

"Gil Hodges is a Hall of Famer; he deserves it and it's a shame his family and friends have had to wait so long."—Duke Snider

"He [Hodges] was such a noble character in so many respects that I believe Gil to have been one of the finest men I met in sports or out if it."—Arthur Daley, The New York Times.

Lou Brissie had his leg destroyed in WWII. While I commend Gil Hodges for his service to our country, that doesn't make him a Hall of Famer. Combining player and managerial careers hasn't helped Billy Martin either. I think Keith Hernandez has a better case than Hodges does.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by Topps206

Lou Brissie had his leg destroyed in WWII. While I commend Gil Hodges for his service to our country, that doesn't make him a Hall of Famer. Combining player and managerial careers hasn't helped Billy Martin either. I think Keith Hernandez has a better case than Hodges does.

Keith Hernandez should be in the HOF!!! Of all the players from my era this is the one that bothers me the most.

[vthobby]

2 other MLB players died in WW2. Elmer Gedeon and Harry O’Neill.

My only point about being a decorated combat Veteran was to highlight his impeccable character and honorable actions during combat. These character traits followed Gil throughout his entire career and short life.

Mike

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

If you can't appreciate Gil Hodges you are not really impressing me with your knowledge of baseball history.

Need I add that Mr. Hodges was as an anti-aircraft gunner in WW2 and most notably Okinawa. He was also the recipient of a Bronze Star Medal with Combat "V" for heroism under fire.

I really do not understand how character means nothing for you? Oh, by the way, best defensive 1B of his day. So many stats to chew on and awards also. Oh yeah, he was the Mets World Championship Manager in 1969.

He was a pure player and pure American. The Hall of Fame could use an icon like him. Actually the Mets Hall of Fame does have Gil inducted. Time for Cooperstown to open the doors.

Peace, Mike

PS Here are some quotes and notations from some notables about Gil:

"Not getting booed at Ebbets Field was an amazing thing. Those fans knew their baseball, and Gil was the only player I can remember whom the fans never, I mean never, booed."—Clem Labine

"...epitomizes the courage, sportsmanship and integrity of America's favorite pastime."—back of a 1966 Topps baseball card.

"Gil Hodges is a Hall of Fame man."—Roy Campanella

"If you had a son, it would be a great thing to have him grow up to be just like Gil Hodges."—Pee Wee Reese

"Gil Hodges is a Hall of Famer; he deserves it and it's a shame his family and friends have had to wait so long."—Duke Snider

"He [Hodges] was such a noble character in so many respects that I believe Gil to have been one of the finest men I met in sports or out if it."—Arthur Daley, The New York Times.

Hodges was before my time but I put a fair amount of stock into the passion of fans advocating for a player they had the opportunity to watch. By far, based on all the threads I have seen here and elsewhere, the most impassioned supporters of a player not in the HOF are Gil Hodges supporters. Based on his playing stats and his WS win as manager, along with the support of fans and reputable character, I think he belongs in the HOF.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

2 other MLB players died in WW2. Elmer Gedeon and Harry O’Neill.

My only point about being a decorated combat Veteran was to highlight his impeccable character and honorable actions during combat. These character traits followed Gil throughout his entire career and short life.

Mike

Again, while I can appreciate character and the kind of person a player was, good character or bad character plays no role into who I think does/does not belong.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Topps206

I'm unimpressed by the low OPS+ for Hodges at his position and at Ebbets.

OPS+ is supposed to be adjusted for the park. I don't see how an OPS + of 120 and a fielding percentage of .992 is bad, but an OPS + of 110 and a fielding percentage of .927 is a lock for the hof. I think that Hodges is more deserving than Dahlen when you consider character and managing. Hodges not only took a laughing stock Mets franchise to world champions, he made the expansion Senators respectable.

[darwinbulldog]

Someday, Man. Someday. Then the late Mr. Sawyer and I will share a bottle of champagne.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by rats60

OPS+ is supposed to be adjusted for the park. I don't see how an OPS + of 120 and a fielding percentage of .992 is bad, but an OPS + of 110 and a fielding percentage of .927 is a lock for the hof. I think that Hodges is more deserving than Dahlen when you consider character and managing. Hodges not only took a laughing stock Mets franchise to world champions, he made the expansion Senators respectable.

It's position adjustment. Dahlen a shortstop, Hodges a first baseman. Ebbets was a small park. Dahlen was a star in the Deadball Era.

[dougscats]

Gil was my idol as a youth though I didn't see him play much, mostly when he was finished as a NY Met.

I did see him hit three balls out of the Polo Grounds in a double-header, I guess it was '62. The last one was right down the line, above the foul pole, over the roof. The umpires deliberated before calling it fair. I learned later that Drysdale, with a 10-0 lead, purportedly grooved it for his old teamie.

I also saw him close up in Leemark Lanes, a Brooklyn bowling alley. He did have huge hands!

I've personally rooted/campaigned for him for the h-o-f for so long now that I'm disgusted and fed up, remembering last year's vote.
I read on Net54 awhile back that Ted Williams, who finished second to him for 1969 manager of the year, and Earl Williams, who lost to him in the World Series, actively campaigned against him.
You'd think Tom Seaver, who venerated Gil, would now stand up for him.

As far as belonging, his stats are close to Cepeda and Perez if I remember correctly, and he did lose a year or so due to the war. And besides his fielding, he was also a teammate who quietly had Jackie Robinson's back.
But what has to put him in the h-o-f is his managing of the '69 Miracle Mets.

I've been watching baseball for 60 years now, and that was the single greatest managerial season I've ever seen. Every move he made was right. Look at their roster--they were a team that was greater than the sum of their parts--and he was their leader.
I've studied baseball history all my life; what manager ever had a better year than that one? In 1968 he took over a 10th place team that had lost 101 games the year before, and by '69 they'd won 100!
1969 was the year America put a man on the moon, and, let me tell you, the Mets were a longer shot.

PS: Whenever I'm leaving Brooklyn, going home to Breezy Point, I go over the Gil Hodges Memorial Bridge. Yup, Brooklyn named a bridge after him. Beloved is the word.

When, h-o-f?