The various Tobacco Factory's and their associated T206 T-brand's

[tedzan]

Liggett & Myers Factory #42 in Durham, North Carolina




TED Z
.

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Liggett & Myers Factory #42 in Durham, North Carolina




TED Z
.

Ted - what a wonderful picture of the old factory in Durham. The American Tobacco buildings have become the centerpiece of a major downtown revitalization project in Durham over the past decade. The ATC campus is now a beautiful mixed-use space that thousands of people enjoy every week. The iconic Lucky Strike towers in your picture are still there, and look down over the equally beautiful Durham Bulls Athletic Park. It's a great experience for any baseball fan.

[tedzan]

Really great photos, thanks for posting them.

I've been meaning to visit the Raleigh-Durham area on our trips to North Carolina.

We visit friends in the Great Smokey Mountains region (Sylva) occasionally, so on our next trip
we will stop in the Raleigh-Durham area.

Take care,


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Based on previous discussions here I think most people agree that t206's were not printed at the cigarette factories. My question is, with numbers in the hundreds of millions of t206's printed
in a time frame from around may 1909 to sometime in 1911 and ALC owning several large printing facilities during this time how can we be certain that all of the t206's were printed at their NYC facility.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Based on previous discussions here I think most people agree that t206's were not printed at the cigarette factories.

Yes, most T206 guys realize this now. Although, very recently a Net54 poster posted to the contrary.

Early 2005, when I first checked out this forum, very few had even heard of American Lithographic (ALC); and, their impact on all these Tobacco cards.
Brian Weisner, Scot Reader, and I were the first to inform everyone on this forum of ALC. You can use the Net54 Search function to read all about it.

Originally Posted by Pat R

My question is, with numbers in the hundreds of millions of t206's printed in a time frame from around may 1909 to sometime in 1911 and ALC
owning several large printing facilities during this time how can we be certain that all of the t206's were printed at their NYC facility.

I did NOT say...."hundreds of millions of t206's".

I said......"The Richmond, VA plant produced many 100's of Millions of cigarettes.".

I would estimate that 10 - 20 Million T206's were printed between Spring/Summer 1909 thru to the Spring of 1911. I base this figure on my (and other's) estimate
that approx. 2 Million T206's are currently in circulation.

OK, let's consider this hypothetical 20 Million number of T206's printed over a period of 2 years.

Approx. 10 Million cards per year divided by 333 working days/year (3 round the clock shifts) = 10,000 cards per day.

My research indicates that T206's essentially were printed on sheets of 100 cards. If true, then that results in 100 such sheets per day. Is this an ambitious estimate ?
Perhaps so, but it certainly was work-able.

I would bet that the NYC firm of American Lithographic was the sole facility that produced all the T206 cards during that 2-year period. What some fail to realize is that
these cardboard gems we love so much were just a relatively small part of ALC's lithographic operation.


Sorry about this lengthy post, but I'll close by noting that there are 52 subjects representing the New York Giants in the T206 set. This amount is far greater than any
other BB team's representation in the T206 set.
In my opinion, this tells us a lot about this New York based Lithographic firm....and, where these cards were printed.


TED Z
.

[The Nasty Nati]

More specially the address for the original ALC is 230 Park Avenue South. If you go on Google maps you can even see the American Lithographic Co plague/engraving as you go down Park Avenue South on the street view feature. I get a kick out of "stupid" things like this. I live in NYC and now I've gotta stop by there.

Thanks for the info Ted!

[tedzan]

Years ago, my wife and I were at Grand Central Station in NYC. We left the Station on Park Avenue and walked south down to 19th Street to check out
the American Lithographic building.
I was hoping to see some remnants of this great printing firm. Perhaps, a museum room with some impressive lithographic artwork, and even an uncut
sheet (or panel) of Tobacco cards.

What a disappointment, this huge guard at the entrance asked us what was the nature of our visit. I told him of the reason for our visit, he immediately
escorted us out of the building. He probably thought I was some sort of "kook".

I noticed in that short visit inside the building a lot of professional offices. It's shame that a small section of this building wasn't dedicated to a museum.


Anyhow, I didn't leave empty-handed, I snapped this picture of the transom above the front entrance.





TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Yes, most T206 guys realize this now. Although, very recently a Net54 poster posted to the contrary.

Early 2005, when I first checked out this forum, very few had even heard of American Lithographic (ALC); and, their impact on all these Tobacco cards.
Brian Weisner, Scot Reader, and I were the first to inform everyone on this forum of ALC. You can use the Net54 Search function to read all about it.





I did NOT say...."hundreds of millions of t206's".

I said......"The Richmond, VA plant produced many 100's of Millions of cigarettes.".

I would estimate that 10 - 20 Million T206's were printed between Spring/Summer 1909 thru to the Spring of 1911. I base this figure on my (and other's) estimate
that approx. 2 Million T206's are currently in circulation.

OK, let's consider this hypothetical 20 Million number of T206's printed over a period of 2 years.

Approx. 10 Million cards per year divided by 333 working days/year (3 round the clock shifts) = 10,000 cards per day.

My research indicates that T206's essentially were printed on sheets of 100 cards. If true, then that results in 100 such sheets per day. Is this an ambitious estimate ?
Perhaps so, but it certainly was work-able.

I would bet that the NYC firm of American Lithographic was the sole facility that produced all the T206 cards during that 2-year period. What some fail to realize is that
these cardboard gems we love so much were just a relatively small part of ALC's lithographic operation.


Sorry about this lengthy post, but I'll close by noting that there are 52 subjects representing the New York Giants in the T206 set. This amount is far greater than any
other BB team's representation in the T206 set.
In my opinion, this tells us a lot about this New York based Lithographic firm....and, where these cards were printed.


TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

I read your post, I know you were talking about cigarettes, I was referring to
some estimates I have seen, including Scot Readers estimate of possibly as high as 370 million t206's in his "inside t206" article. In the article he provides
some valid information on how he came up with his estimates.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hi Ted,

I was referring to some estimates I have seen, including Scot Readers estimate of possibly as high as 370 million t206's in his "inside t206" article.
In the article he provides some valid information on how he came up with his estimates.

I very seldom differ with Scot; however, in this case I have to question his " 370 million T206's " estimate. I consider this estimate to be way too high for two reasons.

1st....If I recall correctly, about 9 years ago we arrived at T206 survivability number of 1.5 - 2 Million T206's currently in circulation. Assuming 370 Million is valid, that
translates into a "survivability factor" of approx. 0.5 %. Sorry guys, something doesn't jive here.....this factor is way too low.

2nd....What I think Scot has not accounted for in his estimate are the various Non-Sports issues (circa 1909 - 1911). Off the top of my mind I can name the T42 (Birds)
issue, T58 (Fish) issue, T59 (Flags) issue, etc. These insert cards were printed with American Beauty, Cycle, Old Mill, Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Cap advertising backs.
And, judging by the large numbers of them that have survived, ALC must have printed them in the many of Millions.

Furthermore, in January 1911 ALC started producing their Gold-Bordered issues with the T80 Military Series cards that had T206-type backs (Lenox, Old Mill, Tolstoi and
Uzit). And, judging from the present day availability of the T80's, ALC must have printed them in the many of Millions.

My point here is obvious, when you account for all the various insert card issues during the 1909-1911 timeline, there is really no accurate way of determining how many
T206's were originally printed and issued during this 2-year period.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

The POLAR BEAR tobacco brand was produced in Middletown, Ohio (Factory 6).

The Demmitt and O'Hara cards provide us an insight into the timeline when the POLAR BEAR cards where initially introduced. The New York versions of Demmitt and O'Hara
were printed prior to the POLAR BEAR press runs. Subsequently, Demmitt and O'Hara were then traded to their respective St Louis teams for the 1910 season. Early in May,
both players were re-assigned to the Eastern League. The St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara were printed ONLY with the POLAR BEAR back. Therefore, from this we
can conclude that the first series of POLAR BEAR cards were printed and issued circa..Spring/Summer 1910.




1912 Imperial Tobacco (C46)....Eastern (International) League cards of Demmitt and O'Hara





TED Z
.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hi Ted,

I read your post, I know you were talking about cigarettes, I was referring to
some estimates I have seen, including Scot Readers estimate of possibly as high as 370 million t206's in his "inside t206" article. In the article he provides
some valid information on how he came up with his estimates.

Patrick that article is EXACTLY where I derived my T206 checklist from. I have changed it to match T206Resources series checklists now though.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Yes, most T206 guys realize this now. Although, very recently a Net54 poster posted to the contrary.

Early 2005, when I first checked out this forum, very few had even heard of American Lithographic (ALC); and, their impact on all these Tobacco cards.
Brian Weisner, Scot Reader, and I were the first to inform everyone on this forum of ALC. You can use the Net54 Search function to read all about it.





I did NOT say...."hundreds of millions of t206's".

I said......"The Richmond, VA plant produced many 100's of Millions of cigarettes.".

I would estimate that 10 - 20 Million T206's were printed between Spring/Summer 1909 thru to the Spring of 1911. I base this figure on my (and other's) estimate
that approx. 2 Million T206's are currently in circulation.

OK, let's consider this hypothetical 20 Million number of T206's printed over a period of 2 years.

Approx. 10 Million cards per year divided by 333 working days/year (3 round the clock shifts) = 10,000 cards per day.

My research indicates that T206's essentially were printed on sheets of 100 cards. If true, then that results in 100 such sheets per day. Is this an ambitious estimate ?
Perhaps so, but it certainly was work-able.

I would bet that the NYC firm of American Lithographic was the sole facility that produced all the T206 cards during that 2-year period. What some fail to realize is that
these cardboard gems we love so much were just a relatively small part of ALC's lithographic operation.


Sorry about this lengthy post, but I'll close by noting that there are 52 subjects representing the New York Giants in the T206 set. This amount is far greater than any
other BB team's representation in the T206 set.
In my opinion, this tells us a lot about this New York based Lithographic firm....and, where these cards were printed.


TED Z
.

While doing some reading on early T cards and their printing, I found an interesting letter in the Duke University on-line library. The letter was written in 1894 to James "Buck" Duke by his father - after "Buck" had taken over day-to-day control of what would then become the ATC. Hoping to spurn the negative image that came with using images of lascivious women in packs of cigarettes - for moral reasons as well as to prevent further legislative restrictions - father encouraged son to find a different subject matter. This form of advertisement then gave way to using images of baseball players on T cards.

It was the following letter which in part, gave rise to our hobby. The letter reads (emphasis are mine for clarity):

My Dear Son,
I have received the enclosed letter from the Rev. John C. Hocutt, and am very much impressed with the wisdom of his argument against circulating lascivious photographs with cigarettes, and have made up my mind to bring the matter to your attention in the interest of morality, and in the hope that you can invent a proper substitute for these pictures which will answer your requirements as an advertisement as well as an inducement to purchase. His views are so thoroughly and plainly stated that I do not know how that I can add anything except to state that they accord with my own, and that I have always looked upon the distribution of this character of advertisement as wrong in its pernicious effects upon young man and womanhood and therefore has not jingled with my religious impulses. Outside of the fact that we owe Christianity all the assistance we can lend it in any form, which is paramount to any other consideration, I am fully convinced that this mode of advertising will be used and greatly strengten (sic) the arguments against cigarettes in the legislative halls of the States. I hope you will consider this carefully and appreciate my side of the question. It will pleasure me much to know that a change had been made.

Affectionately, your father

Just an interesting side note...

Z