The various Tobacco Factory's and their associated T206 T-brand's

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Yes, most T206 guys realize this now. Although, very recently a Net54 poster posted to the contrary.

Early 2005, when I first checked out this forum, very few had even heard of American Lithographic (ALC); and, their impact on all these Tobacco cards.
Brian Weisner, Scot Reader, and I were the first to inform everyone on this forum of ALC. You can use the Net54 Search function to read all about it.





I did NOT say...."hundreds of millions of t206's".

I said......"The Richmond, VA plant produced many 100's of Millions of cigarettes.".

I would estimate that 10 - 20 Million T206's were printed between Spring/Summer 1909 thru to the Spring of 1911. I base this figure on my (and other's) estimate
that approx. 2 Million T206's are currently in circulation.

OK, let's consider this hypothetical 20 Million number of T206's printed over a period of 2 years.

Approx. 10 Million cards per year divided by 333 working days/year (3 round the clock shifts) = 10,000 cards per day.

My research indicates that T206's essentially were printed on sheets of 100 cards. If true, then that results in 100 such sheets per day. Is this an ambitious estimate ?
Perhaps so, but it certainly was work-able.

I would bet that the NYC firm of American Lithographic was the sole facility that produced all the T206 cards during that 2-year period. What some fail to realize is that
these cardboard gems we love so much were just a relatively small part of ALC's lithographic operation.


Sorry about this lengthy post, but I'll close by noting that there are 52 subjects representing the New York Giants in the T206 set. This amount is far greater than any
other BB team's representation in the T206 set.
In my opinion, this tells us a lot about this New York based Lithographic firm....and, where these cards were printed.


TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

I read your post, I know you were talking about cigarettes, I was referring to
some estimates I have seen, including Scot Readers estimate of possibly as high as 370 million t206's in his "inside t206" article. In the article he provides
some valid information on how he came up with his estimates.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hi Ted,

I was referring to some estimates I have seen, including Scot Readers estimate of possibly as high as 370 million t206's in his "inside t206" article.
In the article he provides some valid information on how he came up with his estimates.

I very seldom differ with Scot; however, in this case I have to question his " 370 million T206's " estimate. I consider this estimate to be way too high for two reasons.

1st....If I recall correctly, about 9 years ago we arrived at T206 survivability number of 1.5 - 2 Million T206's currently in circulation. Assuming 370 Million is valid, that
translates into a "survivability factor" of approx. 0.5 %. Sorry guys, something doesn't jive here.....this factor is way too low.

2nd....What I think Scot has not accounted for in his estimate are the various Non-Sports issues (circa 1909 - 1911). Off the top of my mind I can name the T42 (Birds)
issue, T58 (Fish) issue, T59 (Flags) issue, etc. These insert cards were printed with American Beauty, Cycle, Old Mill, Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Cap advertising backs.
And, judging by the large numbers of them that have survived, ALC must have printed them in the many of Millions.

Furthermore, in January 1911 ALC started producing their Gold-Bordered issues with the T80 Military Series cards that had T206-type backs (Lenox, Old Mill, Tolstoi and
Uzit). And, judging from the present day availability of the T80's, ALC must have printed them in the many of Millions.

My point here is obvious, when you account for all the various insert card issues during the 1909-1911 timeline, there is really no accurate way of determining how many
T206's were originally printed and issued during this 2-year period.


TED Z
.

[brass_rat]

Great stuff, Ted! Thanks for teaching.

I was in Durham recently, and I happened to walk by Factory 42. It's all boarded up...probably ready to be converted into an office building like the rest of the ATC buildings nearby.

Cheers,
Steve

[yoyot1]

Originally Posted by brass_rat

Great stuff, Ted! Thanks for teaching.

I was in Durham recently, and I happened to walk by Factory 42. It's all boarded up...probably ready to be converted into an office building like the rest of the ATC buildings nearby.

Cheers,
Steve

That sign is on the Ligget & Myers Chesterfield building, which was built in 1948, so isn't the same as the Factory 42 on the T cards. I've tried to figure out what the actual factory #42 was (if it was a specific building in Durham, or just the whole ATC complex), but to no avail. A good history of the ATC complex is here.

It is a great sign though - was looking at it just yesterday.

[brass_rat]

Ahhh, bummer! Shows what I know about "old" buildings. I was anchored by the dates on nearby building plaques...

Thanks for the info!
Steve

Originally Posted by yoyot1

That sign is on the Ligget & Myers Chesterfield building, which was built in 1948, so isn't the same as the Factory 42 on the T cards. I've tried to figure out what the actual factory #42 was (if it was a specific building in Durham, or just the whole ATC complex), but to no avail. A good history of the ATC complex is here.

It is a great sign though - was looking at it just yesterday.

[yoyot1]

Originally Posted by brass_rat

Ahhh, bummer! Shows what I know about "old" buildings. I was anchored by the dates on nearby building plaques...

That whole complex was probably Factory 42; in between the Chesterfield and the Walker building is the old cigarette factory, which the Chesterfield replaced. Ted's postcard actually shows more of the same complex from the perspective of someone standing at the site of the Chesterfield (before it was built) looking northeast. The Toms and Hicks buildings are on the left, the Flowers building is in the middle, and the Cobb building is on the right. Washington Duke's house was on that Chesterfield site as well (until it was torn down around 1915). So you were probably in the right place

The American Tobacco Campus (depicted in the photos posted by Dan) is a couple blocks away. The water tower in Ted's postcard is not the Lucky Strike tower but a different one - there is another water tower in the background mid-right in the ballpark picture that is in the same location.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I very seldom differ with Scot; however, in this case I have to question his " 370 million T206's " estimate. I consider this estimate to be way too high for two reasons.

1st....If I recall correctly, about 9 years ago we arrived at T206 survivability number of 1.5 - 2 Million T206's currently in circulation. Assuming 370 Million is valid, that
translates into a "survivability factor" of approx. 0.5 %. Sorry guys, something doesn't jive here.....this factor is way too low.

2nd....What I think Scot has not accounted for in his estimate are the various Non-Sports issues (circa 1909 - 1911). Off the top of my mind I can name the T42 (Birds)
issue, T58 (Fish) issue, T59 (Flags) issue, etc. These insert cards were printed with American Beauty, Cycle, Old Mill, Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Cap advertising backs.
And, judging by the large numbers of them that have survived, ALC must have printed them in the many of Millions.

Furthermore, in January 1911 ALC started producing their Gold-Bordered issues with the T80 Military Series cards that had T206-type backs (Lenox, Old Mill, Tolstoi and
Uzit). And, judging from the present day availability of the T80's, ALC must have printed them in the many of Millions.

My point here is obvious, when you account for all the various insert card issues during the 1909-1911 timeline, there is really no accurate way of determining how many
T206's were originally printed and issued during this 2-year period.


TED Z
.

I posted copies of the pages where Scot discusses the possible print numbers
and survival % here is a breakdown of his reasoning.

1 T206 cards were distributed as a premium rather than a primary product. Most early 1900s cigarette purchasers were probably more interested
in a smoke than a small cardboard insert depicting a baseball player. Millions of
T206 cards may have been discarded without so much as an initial viewing.

2 T206 cards were distributed mainly to an adult population. Most adults are less interested in saving novelty items than kids.

3 Baseball cards had little economic value at the time. There was little financial incentive to keep them.

Plus these obstacles of survival over the past 100+ years. Several generations
of T206 owners, countless moves, harsh storage conditions and world war II paper drives.

He does take into account for the birds, fish ect... by stating the 370 million estimate may be considerably lower based on the reports that they may have
been inserted in packs in 1910-11.

I think the T206 numbers would still be well over 100 million, but either way whether they were birds ,fish, military men or flags they were still printed by the ALC in the 1909-11 time frame.

[dougscats]

Thanks for the lesson, Ted.

Found Scot Reader's stuff interesting too.

I'm bookmarking this page for reference.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by yoyot1

That sign is on the Ligget & Myers Chesterfield building, which was built in 1948, so isn't the same as the Factory 42 on the T cards. I've tried to figure out what the actual factory #42 was (if it was a specific building in Durham, or just the whole ATC complex), but to no avail. A good history of the ATC complex is here.

It is a great sign though - was looking at it just yesterday.

Tom

Thanks for the info....and, especially the link to the ATC complex history.


Steve

Thanks for posting your Liggett & Myers photos.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

The EPDG cigars for many years were manufactured in Florida factory's in Tampa and Key West. The EPDG cards identify Factory #17 in Virginia,
which I think pertained to their cigarette production and was located in the greater Richmond area.




. . . . . . . .


..




TED Z
.

[tedzan]

The POLAR BEAR tobacco brand was produced in Middletown, Ohio (Factory 6).

The Demmitt and O'Hara cards provide us an insight into the timeline when the POLAR BEAR cards where initially introduced. The New York versions of Demmitt and O'Hara
were printed prior to the POLAR BEAR press runs. Subsequently, Demmitt and O'Hara were then traded to their respective St Louis teams for the 1910 season. Early in May,
both players were re-assigned to the Eastern League. The St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara were printed ONLY with the POLAR BEAR back. Therefore, from this we
can conclude that the first series of POLAR BEAR cards were printed and issued circa..Spring/Summer 1910.




1912 Imperial Tobacco (C46)....Eastern (International) League cards of Demmitt and O'Hara





TED Z
.

[tedzan]

I am sure I'll have to dodge some flak aimed at me for saying this.....but as more info has surfaced in recent years regarding this card,
I've become convinced it is the 525th card in the T206 set.
To date, only 14 (or 15) examples have been confirmed. I really expect that more of these Cobb's will eventually be discovered.

In any event, my research suggests that Factory #33, 4th District was located in Wilson, NC. Wilson is only 54 miles from Factory #42,
4th District in Durham, NC.


.



TED Z
.

[1880nonsports]

if the words base ball series (or subjects) were on the back - sure looks like a T206 though ...... I conceded to the monster about half way through as it took too much time away from my core goals (and too new!) - but I always thought of it as arbitrary depending mostly on how one defined the groups.

[yoyot1]

Originally Posted by tedzan

In any event, my research suggests that Factory #33, 4th District was located in Wilson, NC. Wilson is only 54 miles from Factory #42,
4th District in Durham, NC.

What's the evidence pointing to Wilson? In older threads I've seen Reidsville, Wilson, and Durham posited as possible Factory 33 locations - what rules out the other two?

Not challenging the assertion, and I have no contradicting evidence, just curious.

[dealme]

I've always been somewhat curious about it, and this seems like a reasonable place to post this question. How regional was the distribution of T206s? Ted referenced Middletown, OH as the production location for Polar Bear. It seems reasonable to infer that cards issued with Polar Bear backs would have been much more prevalent in the Midwest. Is this actually the case, or did ATC make their various brands (specifically Piedmont and Sweet Cap) available throughout the country?

Along the same lines, how far west were T206s distributed? Obviously the eastern part of the country was far more settled and industrialized than the west in the 1909-1911 time-frame. Put another way, if I stop at a garage sale or flea market when visiting the Denver area, is it even worth looking?

I've found this to be a very interesting thread, especially the modern-day pics of older production facilities. Thanks to those that have posted.

Mark

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by dealme

I've always been somewhat curious about it, and this seems like a reasonable place to post this question. How regional was the distribution of T206s ?
Ted referenced Middletown, OH as the production location for Polar Bear. It seems reasonable to infer that cards issued with Polar Bear backs would have been much more prevalent in the Midwest. Is this actually the case, or did ATC make their various brands (specifically Piedmont and Sweet Cap) available throughout the country?

Along the same lines, how far west were T206s distributed? Obviously the eastern part of the country was far more settled and industrialized than the west in the 1909-1911 time-frame. Put another way, if I stop at a garage sale or flea market when visiting the Denver area, is it even worth looking?

I've found this to be a very interesting thread, especially the modern-day pics of older production facilities. Thanks to those that have posted.

Mark

Hi Mark

A very good question.
Although the following may be anecdotal, here are my experiences acquiring (or being involved in) original T206 collections during the past 35 years.


South Carolina...........400+ assorted all PIEDMONT cards, including 29 - OLD MILL Southern Leaguers

Atlanta, Georgia.........285 assorted all PIEDMONT cards

Pennsylvania..............220 different SOVEREIGN cards


Other T206 original finds......

Baltimore, MD............750 cards

Upstate New York......300+ different SOVEREIGN cards

St Louis......................43 - DRUM cards

Northern California.....184 - EPDG and OLD MILL cards

Maine.........................1000+ Tobacco cards


These quickly pop into my mind........but, there are many more



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by yoyot1

What's the evidence pointing to Wilson? In older threads I've seen Reidsville, Wilson, and Durham posited as possible Factory 33 locations - what rules out the other two?

Not challenging the assertion, and I have no contradicting evidence, just curious.

I appreciate your curiosity. I correct my statement in post #22......

Factory #33 (4th District) that manufactured the Ty Cobb Tobacco was located in Reidsville, NC.

The Wilson, NC Factory is the location of Contentnea Cigarette production.

Please excuse, I didn't mean to confuse.


.



TED Z
.

[The Nasty Nati]

Walked by the American Lithographic Co. building today...wouldn't it be somethin if freshly minted T206s were somewhere buried in the basement or hidden in the walls

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

Walked by the American Lithographic Co. building today...wouldn't it be somethin if freshly minted T206s were somewhere buried in the basement or hidden in the walls

Great photo, guy.

A pretty good looking building for a 120 year old structure. Joseph Palmer Knapp took over American Lithographic from his father in the late 19th Century.
And, had this 13-story building constructed in 1895. Nowadays, this building is dwarfed by the skyscrapers that surround it in lower Manhattan.

Furthermore, J. P. Knapp and James Buchanan Duke (ATC) became close business partners. J. B. Duke financed J. P. Knapp in the early days of American
Lithographic.


TED Z
.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I am sure I'll have to dodge some flak aimed at me for saying this.....but as more info has surfaced in recent years regarding this card,
I've become convinced it is the 525th card in the T206 set.
To date, only 14 (or 15) examples have been confirmed. I really expect that more of these Cobb's will eventually be discovered.

In any event, my research suggests that Factory #33, 4th District was located in Wilson, NC. Wilson is only 54 miles from Factory #42,
4th District in Durham, NC.


.



TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

What are your thoughts on the Red Cobb w/ Cobb back actually being distributed in packs of cigarettes? It always seemed more likely to me, to be some sort of promotional item. Would Ty be able to order a sheet of Tobacco Cards with his own "brand back" to be given out at, for example, his car dealership in Georgia?

But, I guess if that was the case, why add a factory number to the card.

Any idea when the earliest known reference was to the Cobb back? Wondering if we have proof that these cards were around at the time that the rest of the T206's were being distributed.

Thanks as always for the insight!

best,

Steve

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by wolf441

Hi Ted,

1....What are your thoughts on the Red Cobb w/ Cobb back actually being distributed in packs of cigarettes? It always seemed more likely to me, to be some sort of promotional item. Would Ty be able to order a sheet of Tobacco Cards with his own "brand back" to be given out at, for example, his car dealership in Georgia?

2....But, I guess if that was the case, why add a factory number to the card.

3....Any idea when the earliest known reference was to the Cobb back? Wondering if we have proof that these cards were around at the time that the rest of the T206's were being distributed.

Thanks as always for the insight!

best,

Steve

Steve

My answers to your 3 questions......

1st....My guess is that they were not in cigarette packs, no packs have ever been found. And, I do not think they were included in the Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco Tin.
Most likely, these cards were handed out to Cobb's friends and acquaintances.

2nd....The Factory number is necessary on this this card since it is associated with Cobb's Tobacco Tin (which also identifies Factory #33).

3rd....There was Georgia newspaper advertising in the Spring of 1910 introducing Cobb's new tobacco product.

Furthermore, former Georgia Senator Richard Russell's 1000+ tobacco card collection (which is on display at the Univ. of Georgia) includes this unique Ty Cobb card.
My research regarding Russell's childhood collection suggests that he acquired this card in 1910 when he was a teenager travelling with his Dad (a Judge) to Atlanta.


TED Z
.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Steve

My answers to your 3 questions......

1st....My guess is that they were not in cigarette packs, no packs have ever been found. And, I do not think they were included in the Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco Tin.
Most likely, these cards were handed out to Cobb's friends and acquaintances.

2nd....The Factory number is necessary on this this card since it is associated with Cobb's Tobacco Tin (which also identifies Factory #33).

3rd....There was Georgia newspaper advertising in the Spring of 1910 introducing Cobb's new tobacco product.

Furthermore, former Georgia Senator Richard Russell's 1000+ tobacco card collection (which is on display at the Univ. of Georgia) includes this unique Ty Cobb card.
My research regarding Russell's childhood collection suggests that he acquired this card in 1910 when he was a teenager travelling with his Dad (a Judge) to Atlanta.


TED Z
.

Thanks Ted!

Interesting stuff. Makes you wonder where in Atlanta he acquired it.

A direct gift from Cobb (as a celebrity of the day, I'd assume Cobb would most likely know some judges)?

A promotional give away at a minor league/semi pro game?

A give away as part of one of Cobb's business enterprises?

[tedzan]

My understanding is that Richard Russell's Dad was a well-connected Judge in Atlanta region. So, it's anyone's guess how the 13 year old Russell acquired the Ty Cobb card.

Incidentally, Russell's T206 collection also includes a Joe Doyle Natl'L card.

How many T206 collections can make that claim ?


TED Z
.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hi Ted,

I read your post, I know you were talking about cigarettes, I was referring to
some estimates I have seen, including Scot Readers estimate of possibly as high as 370 million t206's in his "inside t206" article. In the article he provides
some valid information on how he came up with his estimates.

Patrick that article is EXACTLY where I derived my T206 checklist from. I have changed it to match T206Resources series checklists now though.