Greatest of all time

[glynparson]

1. Babe Ruth
2. Barry Bonds
3. Ty Cobb
4. Willie Mays
5. Honus Wagner

Sorry but considering bonds the greatest player ever is far from ignorant. If all it took to be great was popping a pill or getting a shot explain the differences between Ozzie canseco and Jose canseco or Jeremy Giambi and Jason Giambi. These weren't Magic hall of fame pills or shots they were getting.

[aro13]

Before I read your post, I was thinkin that throughout this entire thread...
The Lack of the Lack of Support that Lou Gehrig was getting.
Knowin that opposing pitchers "HAD TO PITCH TO'em"(Because Ruth was uP Next!), Only made Mr. Gehrig's job that much more difficult!
My whole life I've thought Mr. Gehrig to be a better All around player than Mr. Ruth, except in the pitching area.

It Baffles me that Lou Gehrig is Not iN Many of our members Top 5 lists.

Ruth batted 3rd and Gehrig 4th for most of their career.

If indeed both Ruth and Gehrig are in the top 5 you have to figure out why they did not win more pennants and World Series then they did. Unless, you also say that all of the HOFers they played with -Dickey, Lazzeri, Sewell, Combs, Ruffing, Gomez, Hoyt, Pennock are all over-rated. Two of the top 5 players ever combined with 8 other Hall of Famers should have won far more pennants then they did.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by aro13

Ruth batted 3rd and Gehrig 4th for most of their career.

If indeed both Ruth and Gehrig are in the top 5 you have to figure out why they did not win more pennants and World Series then they did. Unless, you also say that all of the HOFers they played with -Dickey, Lazzeri, Sewell, Combs, Ruffing, Gomez, Hoyt, Pennock are all over-rated. Two of the top 5 players ever combined with 8 other Hall of Famers should have won far more pennants then they did.

Several points here:

1. I agree that Gehrig should not be in the top 5, but

2. You shouldn't expect the best team to win against a mediocre opponent, let alone a pennant winner, quite so often in baseball as you seem to. See here: http://freakonomics.com/2012/11/09/d...-world-series/

3. And anyway, they finished 1st or 2nd in the AL 10 times in the 12 years that Ruth and Gehrig were there together -- every year but 1925 (when Ruth and Gehrig missed a combined 88 games) and in 1930 when they finished 18 games above .500 with the second worst pitching staff in MLB (team ERA+ = 89).

4. I'll just quote you out of context here, as it's absolutely spot on. "Dickey, Lazzeri, Sewell, Combs, Ruffing, Gomez, Hoyt, Pennock are all over-rated." Indeed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by aro13

Ruth batted 3rd and Gehrig 4th for most of their career.

If indeed both Ruth and Gehrig are in the top 5 you have to figure out why they did not win more pennants and World Series then they did. Unless, you also say that all of the HOFers they played with -Dickey, Lazzeri, Sewell, Combs, Ruffing, Gomez, Hoyt, Pennock are all over-rated. Two of the top 5 players ever combined with 8 other Hall of Famers should have won far more pennants then they did.

The As were a pretty formidable team in those years. I don't think it detracts from Ruth and Gehrig.

[aro13]

I don't think it detracts from Ruth and Gehrig.

I do not think it detracts from Ruth or Gehrig either in the sense that I would still rank Ruth the greatest player of all-time and Gehrig the greatest firstbasemen. I cannot see both of them being in the top 5 all-time though, given what I stated earlier.

Who are the next best set of teammates for any length of time - Morgan-Bench, Morgan-Rose?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by aro13

I do not think it detracts from Ruth or Gehrig either in the sense that I would still rank Ruth the greatest player of all-time and Gehrig the greatest firstbasemen. I cannot see both of them being in the top 5 all-time though, given what I stated earlier.

Who are the next best set of teammates for any length of time - Morgan-Bench, Morgan-Rose?

Aaron and Spahn?
Eddie Collins and Jimmie Foxx?
Kid Nichols and John Clarkson?
You could also go with Babe Ruth and Tris Speaker (1915).
Or, you know, Pujols and Trout.

[darwinbulldog]

Clemens and Seaver?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Clemens and Seaver?

That was half of one season no?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mantle and Berra has to be considered. Plus Ford.
Maddux and Glavine.
Foxx and Grove.
Mays and McCovey.
Jeter and ARod.
Frank and Brooks.

[bnorth]

Roger Clemens and Wade Boggs in 9 yrs together they won 4 batting titles, 3 Cy Youngs, and 1 MVP.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If we expand to three, hard to top Aaron Mathews and Spahn for a decade. Also Mays McCovey Marichal.

Ott and Hubbell on the list of twos.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That was half of one season no?

Yes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If we count relatively short overlaps, there are many more. Ryan and Seaver. Gehrig and DiMaggio. Mays and Spahn. Williams and Foxx.

[howard38]

Most of them hadn't reached or were past their peaks but the '28 A's had Cobb, Speaker, Collins, Cochrane, Foxx, Grove and Simmons.

[Peter_Spaeth]

1965 Giants were pretty good. G Perry, Spahn, Marichal, Mays, Cepeda and McCovey. 2 300 game winners and 2 500 HR guys.

[Tabe]

Maddux/Glavine/Smoltz/Chipper

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by chipperhank44

Quit being ignorant and calling Bonds the greatest of all time and I'll consider it.

How is it ignorant? It's my opinion.


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[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Aaron and Spahn?
Eddie Collins and Jimmie Foxx?
Kid Nichols and John Clarkson?
You could also go with Babe Ruth and Tris Speaker (1915).
Or, you know, Pujols and Trout.

I am biased, but I had the pleasure of seeing Paul Molitor and Robin Yount play side by side many times at County Stadium between 1978 and 1989, with Molly starting at second base, and then moving to third, and the Kid playing at shortstop.

As teammates (from 1978 to 1992), the numbers they put up are pretty staggering:

Games played: 4,016
At Bats: 15,929
Runs: 2,605
Hits: 4,736
Doubles: 868
Triples: 195
Home Runs: 386
RBI: 1,964
Stolen Bases: 623
Total Bases: 7,152
AVG: .297
OBP: .359
SLG: .449
OPS: .808

The only teammates I know of to have more combined hits than Yount and Molitor's 4,736 are Roberto Clemente and Bill Mazeroski, who tallied 4,895 hits between 1956 and 1972. Of course, they played in 4,472 games combined to 4,016 for Yount and Molitor.

Best power hitting duo of all-time? The two duos that immediately come to mind are Ruth and Gehrig, and Aaron and Mathews.

Ruth and Gehrig were teammates from 1923 to 1934.
Aaron and Mathews from 1954 to 1966.

Ruth and Gehrig combined to hit 859 home runs, driving in 3,029 runs.
Aaron and Mathews combined to hit 863 home runs, driving in 2,627 runs.

That's a lot of balls flying out of the park!

Right behind them, Willie Mays and Willie McCovey hit 813 home runs as teammates, driving in 2,344 runs.

[aro13]

My original thought was that if you ranked the top 50 players of all-time what two teammates would be ranked the highest. Some people had Ruth #1 and Gehrig #2.

I think after Ruth-Gehrig it would be either Morgan-Rose, Aaron-Mathews or if you want to count three years Foxx-Williams.

The best pitcher-hitter combo on the same team - Foxx-Grove.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

How is it ignorant? It's my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If he was any good, he wouldn't have needed to dope. He was ok with Pitt, but he went to SF and felt he needed to start doping in 1993 to be better. Clean it was questionable if he would have even made the HOF, like Roger Maris or Dale Murphy.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

1965 Giants were pretty good. G Perry, Spahn, Marichal, Mays, Cepeda and McCovey. 2 300 game winners and 2 500 HR guys.

They also had Tom Haller, Jim Ray Hart, and Felipe Alou. I think that mid-sixties Giants team was the most underachieving team of all time. Only one pennant and no World Series title to show for all that talent.

Actually, Felipe Alou was on the earlier Giants, but was gone by 1965. Matty and Jesus were still on the Giants though.

[jessness]

Musial has got to be in this list somewhere. And Williams of course. Think of his numbers if he didn't serve his country twice.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by rats60

If he was any good, he wouldn't have needed to dope. He was ok with Pitt, but he went to SF and felt he needed to start doping in 1993 to be better. Clean it was questionable if he would have even made the HOF, like Roger Maris or Dale Murphy.

He'd won two straight MVPs in Pittsburgh and led the league in OPS three straight years and was considered perhaps the best defensive LF ever. He was quite a bit more than OK.

Also, I thought the allegations are that he used steroids after the 1998 season.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

He'd won two straight MVPs in Pittsburgh and led the league in OPS three straight years and was considered perhaps the best defensive LF ever. He was quite a bit more than OK.

Also, I thought the allegations are that he used steroids after the 1998 season.

My information is that he began using after 1998 also. He was the only hitter I ever saw who made major league pitching look like slow-pitch softball--one broadcaster recently commented that he could never remember Barry even swinging and missing at a pitch! Too bad he was such an incredible jerk, though--he was the very last guy who could even hope to get away with using. I still don't know how to mentally compartmentalize these guys: Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, etc.--they were the very best of their era, with tons of guys doing the same thing--do you put them in the HOF???

What I'd like to see done will never happen: polygraph testing re whether or not they used PED's, which would be a prerequisite for getting on the HOF ballot. PED use would neither disqualify them from the ballot or admission, but if voted in, they would go in with the appropriate asterisk/notation on their plaques.

Just my two cents,

Larry

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

He'd won two straight MVPs in Pittsburgh and led the league in OPS three straight years and was considered perhaps the best defensive LF ever. He was quite a bit more than OK.

Best defensive LF means nothing. LF is where you put outfielders not good enough to play center or right. And Barry's noodle arm keeps him out of any "best defensive" anything discussion.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

He'd won two straight MVPs in Pittsburgh and led the league in OPS three straight years and was considered perhaps the best defensive LF ever. He was quite a bit more than OK.

Also, I thought the allegations are that he used steroids after the 1998 season.

Maris and Murphy won two straight MVPs, Bonds didn't. Leading in OPS is worth less when you stink in the post season .191/.329/.390 3rbi in 20 games. Bonds is probably the worst post season player ever. 6 of 7 times in the post season, his team lost the first series and Bonds was terrible. Even in 2002 doped up, he had a good postseason at the plate, but misplayed a Troy Glaus fly ball into a game winning double in game 7 of the WS.

As far as defense, no he wasn't that good. He is remembered for his poor throw that allowed Sid Bream to score the winning run in the 92 playoffs and his misplay in the 2002 WS. Like Derek Jeter, he won gold gloves because of his name.

Bonds claim is that he started using in 98, but it is obvious he started in 93. He hooked up with Greg Anderson and Balco after 98 season.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by rats60

Maris and Murphy won two straight MVPs, Bonds didn't. Leading in OPS is worth less when you stink in the post season .191/.329/.390 3rbi in 20 games. Bonds is probably the worst post season player ever. 6 of 7 times in the post season, his team lost the first series and Bonds was terrible. Even in 2002 doped up, he had a good postseason at the plate, but misplayed a Troy Glaus fly ball into a game winning double in game 7 of the WS.

As far as defense, no he wasn't that good. He is remembered for his poor throw that allowed Sid Bream to score the winning run in the 92 playoffs and his misplay in the 2002 WS. Like Derek Jeter, he won gold gloves because of his name.

Bonds claim is that he started using in 98, but it is obvious he started in 93. He hooked up with Greg Anderson and Balco after 98 season.

Is there evidence that he was on steroids in 93? Or even any allegations? If so that would change my perception of him. But as much as I may not of liked him, I have to admit he was a great player - before steroids (1998).