Greatest of all time

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

What you're saying is that if Gwynn had been equal to Bonds on defense and on the basepaths, without otherwise changing anything, Gwynn would easily have been the better player overall.

Not at all - Bonds was leaps and bounds better than him as a power hitter and that counts for a lot if you're talking about him being a better player. Bonds is a better power hitter, was better defensively, and a better base stealer - you add it all up and he's a better player.

Bonds was the better power hitter, but Gwynn, for me, is a better hitter overall when you factor in the things I mentioned. Hit for a much better average, struck out less, won batting title after batting title, and was still hitting well over .300 into his 40s.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

Not at all - Bonds was leaps and bounds better than him as a power hitter and that counts for a lot if you're talking about him being a better player. Bonds is a better power hitter, was better defensively, and a better base stealer - you add it all up and he's a better player.

Bonds was the better power hitter, but Gwynn, for me, is a better hitter overall when you factor in the things I mentioned. Hit for a much better average, struck out less, won batting title after batting title, and was still hitting well over .300 into his 40s.

+ 1

Gwynn get's no respect. Power is overrated. Gwynn hit a HR in the WS against the Yankees. Bonds is a cheating a$$h0le. And no you don't know exactly when he started roiding up and no he WASN'T a HOF'er before the Roids because you don't know when he started, fact is it doesn't matter. He cheated. To quote Hawk "He Gone".

I guess that yeah Gwynn was a nicer and better human being than Bonds. Hitting he WAS a better hitter. He like Cobb had a science to hitting Cobb sought out his advantages in players weaknesses. Gwynn did the same while using recordings of at bats and making it all about the thought process of hitting. If people were going to give him the Gwynn hole in between SS and 3B why wouldn't he keep attacking ??? Boring sure if you're too worried about Home Runs.

Don't get me wrong who doesn't like a HR but to overall hitting, and a guy who only sniffed a .330 average once in his so called "clean years" proves that Gwynn was a smarter/better hitter. He wasn't worried about Home Runs. Nor should he, he knew what type of player/hitter he was. When it isn't broken don't fix it.

Bonds got jealous of McGwire and then that's when he supposedly started juicing. He took an unfair advantage whether or not you view it as one it is a debatable subject in it's own. But MLB sees it as an unfair advantage. Therefore IMO he shouldn't even be a contender to be considered greatest player.

He is the greatest of something but I won't say that out loud on here. Not going to get in trouble again.

P.S. Next thing I'll see is someone claiming Clemens was the greatest pitcher ever

[Peter_Spaeth]

Gwynn is nowhere close to Bonds, IMO. Steroids aside, Bonds is one of the best five players of all time, easily. Gwynn might be top 25. How on earth is power overrated in baseball?? And you could certainly make a strong argument that Clemens is the best ever.

[jbl79]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Gwynn is nowhere close to Bonds, IMO. Steroids aside, Bonds is one of the best five players of all time, easily. Gwynn might be top 25. How on earth is power overrated in baseball??

+1

Gwynn was as great a contact hitter there ever was. I would choose Bonds as the better overall hitter even before Superhuman Bonds. Pre '99...Bonds still had a career .411OBP and .556SLG with a 164OPS+. His ability to draw walks, hitting 30-40HRs while maintaining a .300 average is what separates the two. Bonds only struck out over 100 times once in his entire career...his rookie year. Both great hitters in their own ways...but I would choose Barry.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bonds was already the best player in baseball before he started using.

[ejharrington]

1. Babe Ruth (towers over all other position players)
2. Cy Young (towers over all other pitchers)
3. Barry Bonds (the most dominant player I ever saw)
4. Honus Wagner (the best player at the most important position)
5. Walter Johnson (417 wins)
6. Willie Mays (coin flip with 7)
7. Hank Aaron (coin flip with 6)
8. Ty Cobb (Legend)
9. Rickey Henderson (wreaked havoc wherever he went)
10. Lou Gehrig (sneaks in past the others below)

Honorable Mention:
Albert Pujols
Johnny Bench
Eddie Collins
Joe Morgan
Ted Williams
Pedro Martinez
Tris Speaker
Mickey Mantle
Christy Mathewson

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bonds was already the best player in baseball before he started using.

And can you identify the year he started "using" ??? If that's the case then McGwire and Sosa are HOF players.......... They're both sure more likeable like most people on this forum other than you haha.

Seriously though backing Bonds is like backing G@y-Ro1d up..........

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

And can you identify the year he started "using" ??? If that's the case then McGwire and Sosa are HOF players.......... They're both sure more likeable like most people on this forum other than you haha.

Seriously though backing Bonds is like backing G@y-Ro1d up..........

So far, Josh does not approve of:

1. Steroid users with good home run totals
2. Peter
3. The gays

Anyone else we should add?

[CobbvLajoie1910]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Seriously though backing Bonds is like backing G@y-Ro1d up..........

Josh. In a "community" (which n54 is), I would suggest treading lightly with your homophobic inferences; you never know who is reading your off-the-cuff, mindless garbage.

Go play in traffic, man.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

And can you identify the year he started "using" ??? If that's the case then McGwire and Sosa are HOF players.......... They're both sure more likeable like most people on this forum other than you haha.

Seriously though backing Bonds is like backing G@y-Ro1d up..........

I think consensus is 1999, he felt underappreciated after the McGwire Sosa year. If you look at his stats up to that point there is no question he was already a first ballot HOFer.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Gwynn is nowhere close to Bonds, IMO. Steroids aside, Bonds is one of the best five players of all time, easily. Gwynn might be top 25. How on earth is power overrated in baseball?? And you could certainly make a strong argument that Clemens is the best ever.

Peter I think you are highly overrating Gwynn. There is no way he is top 25, maybe top 50 maybe.

Clemens IS the best pitcher ever. I am very biased though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Peter I think you are highly overrating Gwynn. There is no way he is top 25, maybe top 50 maybe.

Clemens IS the best pitcher ever. I am very biased though.

It's hard to argue with 7 Cy Youngs and 350 plus wins in an era of pitching every fifth day.

[oldjudge]

"i'm partial to lefties like myself: ruth, bonds, teddy ballgame, cobb, mays."

Perhaps Mays wiped with his left hand, but he batted righty.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

"i'm partial to lefties like myself: ruth, bonds, teddy ballgame, cobb, mays."

Perhaps Mays wiped with his left hand, but he batted righty.

yes guys, i realize mays is a righty. some probably don't agree with my bonds and williams choices so i just wanna preface that.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's hard to argue with 7 Cy Youngs and 350 plus wins in an era of pitching every fifth day.

He beats the guy with 417 wins and 0 Cy Young awards

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Paul S

He beats the guy with 417 wins and 0 Cy Young awards

Maybe not, but it's arguable. I think Johnson, Alexander, Grove or Clemens would be a defensible choice. Young too, maybe.