Greatest of all time

Peter_Spaeth · #1 07-21-2015, 08:11 PM

Ron Guidry was a pretty lean guy as I recall and threw very very hard.

Joshchisox08 · #2 07-21-2015, 09:21 PM

I bid on it but I didn't win it. Wish I did. I was a couple bucks off.

the 'stache · #3 07-22-2015, 12:53 AM

Son of a ....

Completely forgot about Napolean Lajoie. I would also like to add Tris Speaker to my ever expanding list. Speaker had a .345 career average, and (if the numbers are accurate) struck out only 394 times in 11,992 plate appearances. That's pretty exceptional, even for the pre-Ruth era.

I'm curious to know where the participants in this discussion would place Tony Gwynn. Outstanding defender and base stealer before his knees began to give out. Never a real power hitter, or big RBI guy. But you can't argue with his eight batting titles. Since 1965, Gwynn's .338 average is 10 points higher than the next best hitter (minimum 5,000 at bats), Wade Boggs. And after meeting with Ted Williams for the first time (1992 All Star Game), Gwynn was an incredible .356 hitter for the last nine seasons of his career.

chaddurbin · #4 07-22-2015, 01:17 AM

i'm partial to lefties like myself: ruth, bonds, teddy ballgame, cobb, mays.

as for clemens using only sparingly to stay healthy, c'mon power pitchers today like verlander is flaming out in their early 30s...even great control guys like halladay were done by their mid 30s. you don't go 220 era+ in your early 40s like clemens without the aid of something. his career should've been done after boston w/o the help of chemistry.

#5 07-22-2015, 01:29 AM

Babe Ruth
Ty Cobb
Ted Williams
Hank Aaron
Ken Griffey Jr. (

hopeless Seattle fan)

bnorth · #6 07-22-2015, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

i'm partial to lefties like myself: ruth, bonds, teddy ballgame, cobb, mays.

as for clemens using only sparingly to stay healthy, c'mon power pitchers today like verlander is flaming out in their early 30s...even great control guys like halladay were done by their mid 30s. you don't go 220 era+ in your early 40s like clemens without the aid of something. his career should've been done after boston w/o the help of chemistry.

So to have a long career as a power pitcher means you took PED's. Ok sounds good. Then Nolan Ryan must have done more PED's than Lance Armstrong. He led the league on strikeouts at the ages of 40, 41, 42, and 43.

darwinbulldog · #7 07-22-2015, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

So to have a long career as a power pitcher means you took PED's. Ok sounds good. Then Nolan Ryan must have done more PED's than Lance Armstrong. He led the league on strikeouts at the ages of 40, 41, 42, and 43.

Interesting point come to think of it, although probably not where you were intending to point. That represents an improvement of 62 strikeouts per year over his age 36, 37, 38, and 39 seasons, starting in 1987. Otherwise he hadn't led the league in strikeouts since he was 32 and facing DHs instead of pitchers. Then at the age of 42 he threw over 300 strikeouts for the first time since age 30. Specifically, his strikeout total was 2.35 standard deviations better than his numbers in the intervening years. That's just ludicrous.

But of course, you'd expect violent outbursts in someone who was using steroids to the extent required to achieve such an improvement in middle-age.

And anyway, these fine gentlemen can testify that the clubhouse in Arlington was clean as a whistle.

I'm not saying he was on the juice, but with the standard of evidence we're applying to all the other guys who have been condemned in this thread, the case against Nolan Ryan is vastly greater than it is against Pedro.

chipperhank44 · #8 07-22-2015, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

And anyway, these fine gentlemen can testify that the clubhouse in Arlington was clean as a whistle.

LOL, fine gentlemen indeed.

brewing · #9 07-22-2015, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I'm not saying he was on the juice, but with the standard of evidence we're applying to all the other guys who have been condemned in this thread, the case against Nolan Ryan is vastly greater than it is against Pedro.

I agree. I think it's an attempt to discount Martinez to justify the reputed greatness of Koufax.

brewing · #10 07-22-2015, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

i'm partial to lefties like myself: ruth, bonds, teddy ballgame, cobb, mays.

Yes, doesn't Mays have the record of least strikeouts batting left handed of all the 500+ home run hitters?

Cozumeleno · #11 07-22-2015, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I'm curious to know where the participants in this discussion would place Tony Gwynn. Outstanding defender and base stealer before his knees began to give out. Never a real power hitter, or big RBI guy. But you can't argue with his eight batting titles. Since 1965, Gwynn's .338 average is 10 points higher than the next best hitter (minimum 5,000 at bats), Wade Boggs. And after meeting with Ted Williams for the first time (1992 All Star Game), Gwynn was an incredible .356 hitter for the last nine seasons of his career.

I'd really have to take a closer look but for me, he'd be pretty far down the list (in comparison here ... I'm saying he wouldn't be in my top 20 or so if we're including pitchers). As you mention, he was a stolen base threat and a very good defender, but only for a relatively small part of his career. Easily the best hitter since Ted Williams, but he'd rank behind a lot of guys that simply did more for longer stretches of time. So many great players that didn't make my top five (i.e. Stan Musial) fit that category.

The things that amaze me are that he was so much better than everyone else in his generation and that he was hitting over .320 still at the age of 41. He was still an above average hitter that late into his career. Nothing but respect for that.

darwinbulldog · #12 07-22-2015, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

I'd really have to take a closer look but for me, he'd be pretty far down the list (in comparison here ... I'm saying he wouldn't be in my top 20 or so if we're including pitchers). As you mention, he was a stolen base threat and a very good defender, but only for a relatively small part of his career. Easily the best hitter since Ted Williams, but he'd rank behind a lot of guys that simply did more for longer stretches of time. So many great players that didn't make my top five (i.e. Stan Musial) fit that category.

The things that amaze me are that he was so much better than everyone else in his generation and that he was hitting over .320 still at the age of 41. He was still an above average hitter that late into his career. Nothing but respect for that.

Easily the best hitter since Ted Williams? Easily a better hitter than Bonds, Pujols, A-Rod, Schmidt, and Boggs? Only if singles count for more than home runs.

Cozumeleno · #13 07-23-2015, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Easily the best hitter since Ted Williams? Easily a better hitter than Bonds, Pujols, A-Rod, Schmidt, and Boggs? Only if singles count for more than home runs.

I put Bonds ahead of him on my all-time player list (and would list several of those guys above him as well). But they all fall short for me in terms of comparing their overall hitting to Gwynn.

Gwynn, IMO, is far more than a singles hitter. He had more (other than Bonds, significantly more) triples than anyone in that group and his doubles stack up pretty favorably against most, too - in fact, he has more than Schmidt and AROD (for now).

The only people on that list even close to him in batting average (to me, probably the top criteria) were Pujols and Boggs. Boggs had as little pop in his bat as he did and while Pujols is a career .315 hitter now, that number is dropping by the day...he hasn't hit that well since 2009 and he could play for another five years or so.

And when you consider that Gwynn never struck out more than 40 times in a season, he's an easy pick for me. If you factor in things like strikeouts and batting titles, I'd take him over anyone else.

darwinbulldog · #14 07-23-2015, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

I put Bonds ahead of him on my all-time player list (and would list several of those guys above him as well). But they all fall short for me in terms of comparing their overall hitting to Gwynn.

What you're saying is that if Gwynn had been equal to Bonds on defense and on the basepaths, without otherwise changing anything, Gwynn would easily have been the better player overall.

brewing · #15 07-23-2015, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

And when you consider that Gwynn never struck out more than 40 times in a season, he's an easy pick for me. If you factor in things like strikeouts and batting titles, I'd take him over anyone else.

Wow! Wow!

Isn't that like saying if you factor in SB's and runs scored (runs and run prevention being the most important things), then Rickey Henderson is the greatest baseball player of All Time?

bnorth · #16 07-22-2015, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Son of a ....

Completely forgot about Napolean Lajoie. I would also like to add Tris Speaker to my ever expanding list. Speaker had a .345 career average, and (if the numbers are accurate) struck out only 394 times in 11,992 plate appearances. That's pretty exceptional, even for the pre-Ruth era.

I'm curious to know where the participants in this discussion would place Tony Gwynn. Outstanding defender and base stealer before his knees began to give out. Never a real power hitter, or big RBI guy. But you can't argue with his eight batting titles. Since 1965, Gwynn's .338 average is 10 points higher than the next best hitter (minimum 5,000 at bats), Wade Boggs. And after meeting with Ted Williams for the first time (1992 All Star Game), Gwynn was an incredible .356 hitter for the last nine seasons of his career.

Just read a great article comparing Gywnn, Boggs, and Cal Ripken. It took into account offence and defense with a bunch of stats I know nothing about. For their careers it had Boggs as #1, Ripken as #2 and Gwynn ranked 3rd. I would personally rank them the same.

rdixon1208 · #17 07-22-2015, 08:17 PM

It's funny to me how many of you guys think that the top 5 players of all time retired 40+ years ago.

glynparson · #18 07-30-2015, 08:12 PM

1. Babe Ruth
2. Barry Bonds
3. Ty Cobb
4. Willie Mays
5. Honus Wagner

Sorry but considering bonds the greatest player ever is far from ignorant. If all it took to be great was popping a pill or getting a shot explain the differences between Ozzie canseco and Jose canseco or Jeremy Giambi and Jason Giambi. These weren't Magic hall of fame pills or shots they were getting.

aro13 · #19 07-31-2015, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Before I read your post, I was thinkin that throughout this entire thread...
The Lack of the Lack of Support that Lou Gehrig was getting.
Knowin that opposing pitchers "HAD TO PITCH TO'em"(Because Ruth was uP Next!), Only made Mr. Gehrig's job that much more difficult!
My whole life I've thought Mr. Gehrig to be a better All around player than Mr. Ruth, except in the pitching area.

It Baffles me that Lou Gehrig is Not iN Many of our members Top 5 lists.

Ruth batted 3rd and Gehrig 4th for most of their career.

If indeed both Ruth and Gehrig are in the top 5 you have to figure out why they did not win more pennants and World Series then they did. Unless, you also say that all of the HOFers they played with -Dickey, Lazzeri, Sewell, Combs, Ruffing, Gomez, Hoyt, Pennock are all over-rated. Two of the top 5 players ever combined with 8 other Hall of Famers should have won far more pennants then they did.

darwinbulldog · #20 07-31-2015, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aro13

Ruth batted 3rd and Gehrig 4th for most of their career.

If indeed both Ruth and Gehrig are in the top 5 you have to figure out why they did not win more pennants and World Series then they did. Unless, you also say that all of the HOFers they played with -Dickey, Lazzeri, Sewell, Combs, Ruffing, Gomez, Hoyt, Pennock are all over-rated. Two of the top 5 players ever combined with 8 other Hall of Famers should have won far more pennants then they did.

Several points here:

1. I agree that Gehrig should not be in the top 5, but

2. You shouldn't expect the best team to win against a mediocre opponent, let alone a pennant winner, quite so often in baseball as you seem to. See here: http://freakonomics.com/2012/11/09/d...-world-series/

3. And anyway, they finished 1st or 2nd in the AL 10 times in the 12 years that Ruth and Gehrig were there together -- every year but 1925 (when Ruth and Gehrig missed a combined 88 games) and in 1930 when they finished 18 games above .500 with the second worst pitching staff in MLB (team ERA+ = 89).

4. I'll just quote you out of context here, as it's absolutely spot on. "Dickey, Lazzeri, Sewell, Combs, Ruffing, Gomez, Hoyt, Pennock are all over-rated." Indeed.

Peter_Spaeth · #21 07-31-2015, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aro13

Ruth batted 3rd and Gehrig 4th for most of their career.

If indeed both Ruth and Gehrig are in the top 5 you have to figure out why they did not win more pennants and World Series then they did. Unless, you also say that all of the HOFers they played with -Dickey, Lazzeri, Sewell, Combs, Ruffing, Gomez, Hoyt, Pennock are all over-rated. Two of the top 5 players ever combined with 8 other Hall of Famers should have won far more pennants then they did.

The As were a pretty formidable team in those years. I don't think it detracts from Ruth and Gehrig.

aro13 · #22 07-31-2015, 01:50 PM

Quote:

I don't think it detracts from Ruth and Gehrig.

I do not think it detracts from Ruth or Gehrig either in the sense that I would still rank Ruth the greatest player of all-time and Gehrig the greatest firstbasemen. I cannot see both of them being in the top 5 all-time though, given what I stated earlier.

Who are the next best set of teammates for any length of time - Morgan-Bench, Morgan-Rose?

darwinbulldog · #23 07-31-2015, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aro13

I do not think it detracts from Ruth or Gehrig either in the sense that I would still rank Ruth the greatest player of all-time and Gehrig the greatest firstbasemen. I cannot see both of them being in the top 5 all-time though, given what I stated earlier.

Who are the next best set of teammates for any length of time - Morgan-Bench, Morgan-Rose?

Aaron and Spahn?
Eddie Collins and Jimmie Foxx?
Kid Nichols and John Clarkson?
You could also go with Babe Ruth and Tris Speaker (1915).
Or, you know, Pujols and Trout.

darwinbulldog · #24 07-31-2015, 02:04 PM

Clemens and Seaver?

the 'stache · #25 08-12-2015, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Aaron and Spahn?
Eddie Collins and Jimmie Foxx?
Kid Nichols and John Clarkson?
You could also go with Babe Ruth and Tris Speaker (1915).
Or, you know, Pujols and Trout.

I am biased, but I had the pleasure of seeing Paul Molitor and Robin Yount play side by side many times at County Stadium between 1978 and 1989, with Molly starting at second base, and then moving to third, and the Kid playing at shortstop.

As teammates (from 1978 to 1992), the numbers they put up are pretty staggering:

Games played: 4,016
At Bats: 15,929
Runs: 2,605
Hits: 4,736
Doubles: 868
Triples: 195
Home Runs: 386
RBI: 1,964
Stolen Bases: 623
Total Bases: 7,152
AVG: .297
OBP: .359
SLG: .449
OPS: .808

The only teammates I know of to have more combined hits than Yount and Molitor's 4,736 are Roberto Clemente and Bill Mazeroski, who tallied 4,895 hits between 1956 and 1972. Of course, they played in 4,472 games combined to 4,016 for Yount and Molitor.

Best power hitting duo of all-time? The two duos that immediately come to mind are Ruth and Gehrig, and Aaron and Mathews.

Ruth and Gehrig were teammates from 1923 to 1934.
Aaron and Mathews from 1954 to 1966.

Ruth and Gehrig combined to hit 859 home runs, driving in 3,029 runs.
Aaron and Mathews combined to hit 863 home runs, driving in 2,627 runs.

That's a lot of balls flying out of the park!

Right behind them, Willie Mays and Willie McCovey hit 813 home runs as teammates, driving in 2,344 runs.

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