Greatest of all time

[chaddurbin]

i'm partial to lefties like myself: ruth, bonds, teddy ballgame, cobb, mays.

as for clemens using only sparingly to stay healthy, c'mon power pitchers today like verlander is flaming out in their early 30s...even great control guys like halladay were done by their mid 30s. you don't go 220 era+ in your early 40s like clemens without the aid of something. his career should've been done after boston w/o the help of chemistry.

Babe Ruth
Ty Cobb
Ted Williams
Hank Aaron
Ken Griffey Jr. ( hopeless Seattle fan)

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

i'm partial to lefties like myself: ruth, bonds, teddy ballgame, cobb, mays.

as for clemens using only sparingly to stay healthy, c'mon power pitchers today like verlander is flaming out in their early 30s...even great control guys like halladay were done by their mid 30s. you don't go 220 era+ in your early 40s like clemens without the aid of something. his career should've been done after boston w/o the help of chemistry.

So to have a long career as a power pitcher means you took PED's. Ok sounds good. Then Nolan Ryan must have done more PED's than Lance Armstrong. He led the league on strikeouts at the ages of 40, 41, 42, and 43.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by bnorth

So to have a long career as a power pitcher means you took PED's. Ok sounds good. Then Nolan Ryan must have done more PED's than Lance Armstrong. He led the league on strikeouts at the ages of 40, 41, 42, and 43.

Interesting point come to think of it, although probably not where you were intending to point. That represents an improvement of 62 strikeouts per year over his age 36, 37, 38, and 39 seasons, starting in 1987. Otherwise he hadn't led the league in strikeouts since he was 32 and facing DHs instead of pitchers. Then at the age of 42 he threw over 300 strikeouts for the first time since age 30. Specifically, his strikeout total was 2.35 standard deviations better than his numbers in the intervening years. That's just ludicrous.

But of course, you'd expect violent outbursts in someone who was using steroids to the extent required to achieve such an improvement in middle-age.




And anyway, these fine gentlemen can testify that the clubhouse in Arlington was clean as a whistle.




I'm not saying he was on the juice, but with the standard of evidence we're applying to all the other guys who have been condemned in this thread, the case against Nolan Ryan is vastly greater than it is against Pedro.

[chipperhank44]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

And anyway, these fine gentlemen can testify that the clubhouse in Arlington was clean as a whistle.

LOL, fine gentlemen indeed.

[e107collector]

Top 10:

(1) Ruth
(2) Cobb
(3) Gehrig
(4) Williams
(5) Shoeless Joe
(6) Mantle
(7) Walter Johnson
(8) Christy Mathewson
(9) Cy Young
(10) Honus Wagner

[brewing]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I'm not saying he was on the juice, but with the standard of evidence we're applying to all the other guys who have been condemned in this thread, the case against Nolan Ryan is vastly greater than it is against Pedro.

I agree. I think it's an attempt to discount Martinez to justify the reputed greatness of Koufax.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by brewing

I agree. I think it's an attempt to discount Martinez to justify the reputed greatness of Koufax.

There was nothing "reputed" about the greatness of Koufax--I saw it as it occurred--other than the length of time it took him to get to that point, and its premature end. He routinely threw an upper '90's fastball that would hop at the end (due to backspin exerting its full effect when the ball's forward impetus began to decline sufficiently, much like the drives some golfers hit), like the one DeGrom of the Mets threw to Vogt in the All-Star Game, starting at the waist and ending up at shoulder level, and a 12 to 6 curve that he always telegraphed, but few could still hit at all. Agree wholeheartedly that Pedro was fantastic!

Great thread,

Larry

[rats60]

Originally Posted by brewing

I agree. I think it's an attempt to discount Martinez to justify the reputed greatness of Koufax.

What pitcher has won 3 unanimous Cy Youngs in 4 years?
What pitcher won a MVP and was runner up twice in a 4 year period?
What pitcher won 3 pitching triple crowns in 4 years?
What pitcher won 2 World Series MVPs in that same 4 year period?
What pitcher threw 2 shutouts in 3 days to clich a world championship?
What pitcher threw a perfect game and 3 no hitters in 4 years?
Reputed is the wrong word, unparalleled is the word you were looking for.

[brewing]

Originally Posted by rats60

Reputed is the wrong word, unparalleled is the word you were looking for.

No it's the word I meant. Don't get me wrong, I think Koufax was great. I don't dispute he was the best pitcher on earth for 4 years either.

I don't believe he belongs in the discussion for greatest ever (living or dead) though. Not when considering the ballpark he pitched half his games in and the era he pitched.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by brewing

No it's the word I meant. Don't get me wrong, I think Koufax was great. I don't dispute he was the best pitcher on earth for 4 years either.

I don't believe he belongs in the discussion for greatest ever (living or dead) though. Not when considering the ballpark he pitched half his games in and the era he pitched.

Koufax pitched against
Roberto Clemente
Willie Mays
Hank Aaron
Stan Musisl
Eddie Mathews
Willie Stargell
Willie McCovey
Orlando Cepeda
Frank Robinson
Pete Rose
Lou Brock
Ernie Banks
Ron Santo
Billy Williams
Richie Allen
Richie Ashburn
Nellie Fox
Yogi Berra
Duke Snider
Mickey Mantle
Roger Maris
Harmon Killebrew

I guess the NL really sucked, no talent. There's no excuse for not pitching multiple no hitters every season, an ERA under 1 (He did it in the WS, why not the regular season)., 400 Ks, 30 wins. I guess the Dodgers should have stayed in the Colasium with a 250 ft left field fence. After all, you think that had no impact on his era or other stats. Moving into a real major league park was an unfair advantage for Koufax, as was pitching against no talent in the NL or WS. Striking out 15 Yankees was meaningless, cause that team sucked too. Go on and continue hating the best left handed pitcher of all time.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by brewing

No it's the word I meant. Don't get me wrong, I think Koufax was great. I don't dispute he was the best pitcher on earth for 4 years either.

I don't believe he belongs in the discussion for greatest ever (living or dead) though. Not when considering the ballpark he pitched half his games in and the era he pitched.

It is true that Koufax clearly benefited from both the park he pitched in and the second most friendly era to pitchers of all time (large strike zone; high mound). That said, if you plug Lefty Grove's stats into the same era as Koufax, in Dodger Stadium, using the neutralization factors on www.baseballreference.com, what you get is a whole series of years that are pretty much identical to the best years of Koufax. Grove, however, was great for a much longer period of time, which is why his ERA+ (nearly 50% below league average) is better than Koufax's (about 31%, going by memory). And there is little objective room for dispute that Lefty Grove has to be in any rational discussion of the greatest pitchers of all time (he and Walter Johnson were each right around 50% below league ERA for their careers). Grove was handicapped in win totals because his minor league owner didn't want to sell him until the price was to his liking, and Connie Mack finally anted up.

Terrific thread and discussion!

Larry

[brewing]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

i'm partial to lefties like myself: ruth, bonds, teddy ballgame, cobb, mays.

Yes, doesn't Mays have the record of least strikeouts batting left handed of all the 500+ home run hitters?