OT: Greatest Living Four

[kgibson]

Aaron, Mays, Gibson, Ryan

[Edwolf1963]

Mike Blowers, Andy Stankewicz, Kiko Garcia, Mickey Klutz

Wait, sorry - wrong list ...

Mays
Aaron
Koufax
Nolan Ryan

[Beatles Guy]

Seventh game of the World Series, who do you pitch - Seaver, Ryan, Koufax or Gibson? I have to go Gibson.

[Jlighter]

Bench is not top 4 living, they had him there for the Reds fans, but I don't know why they didn't choose Frank Robinson.

Mays, Aaron, Koufax(I'm biased), Pedro

[celoknob]

Koufax had one of the best five year runs ever but if I was picking one pitcher I would definitely choose Randy Johnson, Maddux or Seaver as having greater careers.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by celoknob

Koufax had one of the best five year runs ever but if I was picking one pitcher I would definitely choose Randy Johnson, Maddux or Seaver as having greater careers.

I think it's tough to make this decision without having seen the players during their careers. I'm also biased towards Seaver as a Mets fan who grew up on him but also remember the long downside of his career -- which didn't exist for Koufax thus the strong memeories he left in fans' minds.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I think it's tough to make this decision without having seen the players during their careers. I'm also biased towards Seaver as a Mets fan who grew up on him but also remember the long downside of his career -- which didn't exist for Koufax thus the strong memeories he left in fans' minds.

Jeff - here's a few Seaver stats few people are aware of: 1) After his first 15 seasons that cover approximately 4,000 innings pitched, his lifetime ERA was an incredible 2.60!!! Talk about an unparalleled combination of peak value and longevity. 2) Along with Walter Johnson, Seaver is one of only 2 pitchers EVER who won 300+ games, post 3,000+ strikeouts and have a sub-3.00 lifetime ERA...... wow!

Joe T.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Jeff - here's a few Seaver stats few people are aware of: 1) After his first 15 seasons that cover approximately 4,000 innings pitched, his lifetime ERA was an incredible 2.60!!! Talk about an unparalleled combination of peak value and longevity. 2) Along with Walter Johnson, Seaver is one of only 2 pitchers EVER who won 300+ games, post 3,000+ strikeouts and have a sub-3.00 lifetime ERA...... wow!

Joe T.

Do you remember when you heard he was traded for Doug Flynn, Pat Zachry and Steve Henderson? One of the darkest days of my youth. I still cringe when hearing the name "M. Donald Grant."

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

Bench is not top 4 living, they had him there for the Reds fans, but I don't know why they didn't choose Frank Robinson.

Mays, Aaron, Koufax(I'm biased), Pedro

Bench revolutionized the catcher's roll and made it an art form.

Aaron, Bench, Koufax, Mays - and Schmidt would have been my fifth.
.
.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Bench revolutionized the catcher's roll and made it an art form.

.

But that doesn't necessarily make him better. Without Richard Pryor there is no Eddie Murphy, but that doesn't make Pryor unimpeccably better. If this were a discussion of who contributed more to the game then this argument could be valid. With the word greatest we aren't left with subjective ambiguity like we are with the Hall of Fame or MVP Award.

[Golfcollector]

Nolan ryan
6 no hitters
all time strikeouts leader...will Never have this record beat.

To me that soldifies him on this list...too bad he played for generally bad teams

[btcarfagno]

Mays
Aaron
F Robinson
Pedro Martinez

Tom C

[btcarfagno]

Pedro > Sandy

To me it's not close.

Tom C

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Beatles Guy

Seventh game of the World Series, who do you pitch - Seaver, Ryan, Koufax or Gibson? I have to go Gibson.

Definitely not Ryan. Tossup as to the others.

[ValKehl]

After Aaron, Koufax, and Mays, you could throw a dart at all the other players named in this thread and have the best living 4. Another possibility for the 4th player, whom I don't believe has yet been mentioned, is Mariano Rivera.
Val

[Peter_Spaeth]

There was nobody better for a 4 or maybe 5 year stretch, but Koufax's career doesn't touch Seaver, or Gibson, or Carlton, or Clemens, or Maddux.

[GregMitch34]

Can't believe all the Nolan Ryan picks. Way, way down the list. Look at the e.r.a., for one thing...

[BlueDevil89]

I assume that they were looking for players from the 50's & 60's era, plus one Cincy player.

I would have went with Aaron, Mays, Koufax and Frank Robinson (Cincy player). I assume they went with Bench because they wanted a player who spent his whole career in Cincy.

Rose was left out because he is still not fully accepted back into baseball by MLB yet. The fact that they let him be part of pre-game was a major step forward.

If they were not insisting on a Reds player, Yogi Berra should have definitely been included. He could have even bumped Koufax, but I think they wanted a pitcher included.

[basesareempty]

Originally Posted by BlueDevil89

I assume that they were looking for players from the 50's & 60's era, plus one Cincy player.

I would have went with Aaron, Mays, Koufax and Frank Robinson (Cincy player). I assume they went with Bench because they wanted a player who spent his whole career in Cincy.

Rose was left out because he is still not fully accepted back into baseball by MLB yet. The fact that they let him be part of pre-game was a major step forward.

If they were not insisting on a Reds player, Yogi Berra should have definitely been included. He could have even bumped Koufax, but I think they wanted a pitcher included.

I agree!

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There was nobody better for a 4 or maybe 5 year stretch, but Koufax's career doesn't touch Seaver, or Gibson, or Carlton, or Clemens, or Maddux.

Best four (or five) year stretch would be Pedro Martinez. Look it up, especially WAR. Also, Pedro had better career numbers in almost every category than Koufax.

Sandy Koufax is not even in the top 5 for pitchers.

[brewing]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Best four (or five) year stretch would be Pedro Martinez. Look it up, especially WAR. Also, Pedro had better career numbers in almost every category than Koufax.



Sandy Koufax is not even in the top 5 for pitchers.

I agree. According to their stats, Pedro was more dominant.

It's really not close.

There was talk about a bump in Koufax numbers in 1962. Isn't that the year the Mets and Colt 45's joined the league.

Maybe it's human nature to romanticize about the past. I know we are all major league scouts and since we saw "fill in the name" we can attest to their greatness. Or maybe statistics are all we have to make a true objective opinion.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by brewing

I agree. According to their stats, Pedro was more dominant.

It's really not close.

Pedro's four year run from 1997-2000 where his four ERA+ stats total up to 916 (and average of 229 per year) was just insane. Three seasons of 2.07 or lower in an era where 20+ guys had seasons 45 homers - incredible (by contrast, there were *2* in the NL from 1963-66).

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Beatles Guy

Seventh game of the World Series, who do you pitch - Seaver, Ryan, Koufax or Gibson? I have to go Gibson.

In 1965, Walter Alston had the choice to pitch a Hofer on full rest or pitch Koufax on 2 days rest in game 7. He chose Koufax and Koufax pitched his 2nd shutout in 3 games. I'd pitch Koufax over Gibson, but I wouldn't argue with anyone picking Gibby. The only 2 players with multiple World Series MVPS and the 2 best big game pitchers of the modern era, but Koufax's better post season era 0.95 to 1.89 makes the difference to me.

[tbob]

With the game on the line and a win is crucial, how can you go with anyone other than Bob Gibson? Too many collectors here never had a chance to see him pitch. Koufax was great, but in the BIG game, Gibson was the man.

My other 3: Mays, Aaron and Yogi. Berra was CLUTCH. Bench was great, Berra was better.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tbob

With the game on the line and a win is crucial, how can you go with anyone other than Bob Gibson? Too many collectors here never had a chance to see him pitch. Koufax was great, but in the BIG game, Gibson was the man.

My other 3: Mays, Aaron and Yogi. Berra was CLUTCH. Bench was great, Berra was better.

Koufax WS ERA 0.95. Gibson 1.89. Gibson had a better WL. I would call it even at best.

[aro13]

Bonds
Mays
Aaron
Schmidt, Henderson or Morgan

Pitchers
Seaver
Gibson
Clemens
Pedro

[kgibson]

Originally Posted by tbob

With the game on the line and a win is crucial, how can you go with anyone other than Bob Gibson? Too many collectors here never had a chance to see him pitch. Koufax was great, but in the BIG game, Gibson was the man.

Here's some Gibby World Series info. In his 9 games he was 7-2 with 5 consecutive victories. In those 9 games he started he pitched 8 complete games. The other game he pitched 8 innings then he was lifted for a pinch hitter in the bottom of the 8th. And speaking of his hitting, in his 9 World Series games he hit 2 home runs. Tim McCarver said "Bob Gibson is the luckiest pitcher I ever saw. He always pitches when the other team doesn't score any runs."

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by kgibson

Here's some Gibby World Series info. In his 9 games he was 7-2 with 5 consecutive victories. In those 9 games he started he pitched 8 complete games. The other game he pitched 8 innings then he was lifted for a pinch hitter in the bottom of the 8th. And speaking of his hitting, in his 9 World Series games he hit 2 home runs. Tim McCarver said "Bob Gibson is the luckiest pitcher I ever saw. He always pitches when the other team doesn't score any runs."

Very true and people sometimes forget Gibson's 1968 Game 7 loss was largely due to Curt Flood's misplayed fly ball. the outcome might have been different.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by kgibson

Here's some Gibby World Series info. In his 9 games he was 7-2 with 5 consecutive victories. In those 9 games he started he pitched 8 complete games. The other game he pitched 8 innings then he was lifted for a pinch hitter in the bottom of the 8th. And speaking of his hitting, in his 9 World Series games he hit 2 home runs. Tim McCarver said "Bob Gibson is the luckiest pitcher I ever saw. He always pitches when the other team doesn't score any runs."

He actually won 7 straight - his last 2 starts in 1964, all 3 in 1967, and the first 2 in 1968.

Fun stat: Bob Gibson wasn't knocked out of a single game in 1968. Every time he got pulled, it was for a pinch hitter.

[darwinbulldog]

Unexpected stat: Zack Greinke's 2015 Adjusted ERA+ is better than Gibson's 1968.

Not that I expect it to hold up, but it's a hell of an accomplishment to carry that past the All-Star break.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

He actually won 7 straight - his last 2 starts in 1964, all 3 in 1967, and the first 2 in 1968.

Fun stat: Bob Gibson wasn't knocked out of a single game in 1968. Every time he got pulled, it was for a pinch hitter.

How the hell do you lose 9 with a 1.12 ERA? Rhetorical question, but wow.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How the hell do you lose 9 with a 1.12 ERA? Rhetorical question, but wow.

Hi, I'm Ned Garvin.

Career ERA: 2.72 (better than some HOFers, Sandy Koufax for example)
Career record: 58-97
Seasons with a winning record: 0

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

He actually won 7 straight - his last 2 starts in 1964, all 3 in 1967, and the first 2 in 1968.

Fun stat: Bob Gibson wasn't knocked out of a single game in 1968. Every time he got pulled, it was for a pinch hitter.

Is there any evidence that today's pitchers, who pitch every 5th day instead of every 4th, and of course are on pitch counts and rarely go the distance, are hurt less than back when men were men?

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Beatles Guy

Seventh game of the World Series, who do you pitch - Seaver, Ryan, Koufax or Gibson? I have to go Gibson.

+1. Absolutely.