Don't be surprised if..... (HOF debate!)

[jimivintage]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I've said Selig for years.

For players, you forgot Adrian Beltre.

For non-players, I can't understand why Bob Howsam isn't ever discussed. He built the late-60's Cardinals and, of course, the Big Red Machine.

Ken

Hi Ken,

Good point on Bob Howsam. On Adrian Beltre, though, I mentioned above that I deliberately chose to not mention current players. "Off the record though", I'm not sure he belongs there. I'm sure he'll get consideration with a few votes, but personally I need to look at his lifetime stats before I make a determination. Although, will they let a guy who doesn't let other people touch his head in?

Jimi

[Peter_Spaeth]

Vlad Guerrero.

[CobbvLajoie1910]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Vlad Guerrero.

+1. Loved Vlad

Very down with Vizquel. O is a HOFer (Sorry Ozzie, I'm taking Omar at SS).

Too, add Albert Belle. Its criminal neither get the love they deserve.
AB was THE most devastating power hitter of the 90s (save maybe Jr., or Bonds).

Rock Raines is incredibly under-appreciated. I think he eventually gets in.

[z28jd]

I definitely think Ivan Rodriguez was juicing, also there is only one "Pudge" and it's Fisk. When they announced the new testing standards, he came back to camp looking like a bobblehead and said he dropped weight to stay in better shape. He then had his lowest HR total in ten years and lowest SLG since he was 21, then got worse each year after.

[UnVme7]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I definitely think Ivan Rodriguez was juicing, also there is only one "Pudge" and it's Fisk. When they announced the new testing standards, he came back to camp looking like a bobblehead and said he dropped weight to stay in better shape. He then had his lowest HR total in ten years and lowest SLG since he was 21, then got worse each year after.

Maybe so, but I've never seen him on a list, never heard him in Canseco's books(which he was a teammate with for a while and we all know he would've been in there if he did anything), and never failed a test of any sort to my knowledge. My apologies if I didn't read anything on this. If you have an article about him taking steroids, send me a pm on it because I would be interested in reading. His defense alone was incredible. Take as many steroids as you want, you aren't getting that kind of D. That many hits as a catcher is unheard of nowadays.

And I know what year you're talking about when he dropped the weight. Steroids? Maybe, but we don't know that either. Maybe he changed his workout routine, maybe he was sick and lost some weight, or maybe it was around the time he switched trainers. Who knows, but looking at a guy and saying yep, he took steroids, look at his weight. Yeah, that's not quite fair.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by UnVme7

Maybe so, but I've never seen him on a list, never heard him in Canseco's books(which he was a teammate with for a while and we all know he would've been in there if he did anything), and never failed a test of any sort to my knowledge. My apologies if I didn't read anything on this. If you have an article about him taking steroids, send me a pm on it because I would be interested in reading. His defense alone was incredible. Take as many steroids as you want, you aren't getting that kind of D. That many hits as a catcher is unheard of nowadays.

And I know what year you're talking about when he dropped the weight. Steroids? Maybe, but we don't know that either. Maybe he changed his workout routine, maybe he was sick and lost some weight, or maybe it was around the time he switched trainers. Who knows, but looking at a guy and saying yep, he took steroids, look at his weight. Yeah, that's not quite fair.

According to Wiki (gotta be true, right? ), Canseco did claim to have injected Pudge.

A LOT of these steroid guys were great players. I say let them all in. To say it's not fair to assume a guy DID steroids is, to me, just as unfair as assuming a guy did NOT (see: Rodriguez, A and Palmiero, R).

Bagwell had the same weight loss and a similar, lame explanation.

[UnVme7]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

According to Wiki (gotta be true, right? ), Canseco did claim to have injected Pudge.

A LOT of these steroid guys were great players. I say let them all in. To say it's not fair to assume a guy DID steroids is, to me, just as unfair as assuming a guy did NOT (see: Rodriguez, A and Palmiero, R).

Bagwell had the same weight loss and a similar, lame explanation.

I just saw that. Guess I don't remember reading it in the book.

[Tabe]

Among non-players, the top guy is Marvin Miller. Nobody else is even close as a candidate.

[majordanby]

i think tim raines will eventually get in.

mariano rivera will get in. does trevor hoffman have a good shot?

[howard38]

Originally Posted by UnVme7

Maybe so, but I've never seen him on a list, never heard him in Canseco's books(which he was a teammate with for a while and we all know he would've been in there if he did anything), and never failed a test of any sort to my knowledge. My apologies if I didn't read anything on this. If you have an article about him taking steroids, send me a pm on it because I would be interested in reading. His defense alone was incredible. Take as many steroids as you want, you aren't getting that kind of D. That many hits as a catcher is unheard of nowadays.

And I know what year you're talking about when he dropped the weight. Steroids? Maybe, but we don't know that either. Maybe he changed his workout routine, maybe he was sick and lost some weight, or maybe it was around the time he switched trainers. Who knows, but looking at a guy and saying yep, he took steroids, look at his weight. Yeah, that's not quite fair.

"Only God knows."
That was Ivan Rodriguez's response when he was asked if he thought his name was on the list of 100 or so players who tested positive in 2003 testing. It's not proof that he juiced but it's an odd answer if he didn't. Also, Canseco has said that he personally injected him and A-Rod said he witnessed Pudge using PEDs. The testimony of those two doofuses is certainly not enough to convict him but combined w/Pudge's own cryptic words and his muscle gain and subsequent muscle loss there is a compelling case against him.

[UnVme7]

Originally Posted by jimivintage

Hi Ken,

Good point on Bob Howsam. On Adrian Beltre, though, I mentioned above that I deliberately chose to not mention current players. "Off the record though", I'm not sure he belongs there. I'm sure he'll get consideration with a few votes, but personally I need to look at his lifetime stats before I make a determination. Although, will they let a guy who doesn't let other people touch his head in?

Jimi

Regarding Adrian Beltre-- I posted this in another thread but Beltre is about 24 hits away from 2,600, and 7 hr's from 400. Take a look at the guys with at least 2,500 hits and 400 hr's. Very impressive....

[UnVme7]

Non active guys for me are:

Randy Johnson
Biggio
Pedro
Smoltz
Pudge
Chipper
Vizquel
Jeff Kent(I know no one likes him but compared to other 2nd baseman, tough to argue)
Piazza
Griffey
Vlad
Thome
And I really like Tim Raines.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Guerrero
449-1496-.318 with 2590 hits
162 game average 34-113
10 100 RBI seasons
4 200 hit seaons
9 time all star
HOFer by 3 of 4 baseball reference metrics

And people are talking about Adam Dunn and Omar Vizqel?

[packs]

I loved Vlad.

[earlywynnfan]

I agree with Vlad completely.

I'm also a huge Vizquel fan, I'm heartened to hear many who didn't get the chance to see him every day pull for him.

[jimivintage]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I agree with Vlad completely.

I'm also a huge Vizquel fan, I'm heartened to hear many who didn't get the chance to see him every day pull for him.

I am a huge Vizquel fan, too. With that being said, I've seen a ton of American League games....which means I only saw highlight films of Ozzie. Ozzie happened to be my brother's favorite player growing up though. We were a very defensive-minded family.

Jimi

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Guerrero
449-1496-.318 with 2590 hits
162 game average 34-113
10 100 RBI seasons
4 200 hit seaons
9 time all star
HOFer by 3 of 4 baseball reference metrics

And people are talking about Adam Dunn and Omar Vizqel?

And one of THE strongest arms in baseball (ever). Very few tried to go the extra base against him. Don't believe me? Look up the word "canon" in the dictionary.

[wolf441]

Buck O'Neil as a player/scout/ambassador for the game and I think it's a crime that they didn't do it while he was still alive. One reason why Selig should NOT get in. I know he doesn't do the voting, but he could have made it happen if he wanted to...

[DaveW]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

And one of THE strongest arms in baseball (ever). Very few tried to go the extra base against him. Don't believe me? Look up the word "canon" in the dictionary.

Hmmm.... Canon - a regulation or dogma decreed by a church council

Perhaps you meant Cannon - a large gun that shoots heavy metal or stone balls and that was once a common military weapon

Either way, I'd vote for Vlad.

[jimivintage]

Originally Posted by UnVme7

Non active guys for me are:

Randy Johnson
Biggio
Pedro
Smoltz
Pudge
Chipper
Vizquel
Jeff Kent(I know no one likes him but compared to other 2nd baseman, tough to argue)
Piazza
Griffey
Vlad
Thome
And I really like Tim Raines.

Again, all off the top of my head in the original post....plus I was trying to think "outside the box" with non-players. So, admittedly, I failed to list a few others that have a shot at the HOF. So in addition to that thread, I'd also pick:

- Vlad (most definitely)
- Griffey (duh!! Forgot about him.)
- Pudge
- Chipper

I used to pull Kent and Raines cards, but I think Kent gets left off ultimately. I like Raines, too, but isn't he off the ballot now that they went to 10 years instead of 15? Or did he get "grandfathered" in for the duration of the 15 original years?

Jimi

[UnVme7]

Originally Posted by jimivintage

Again, all off the top of my head in the original post....plus I was trying to think "outside the box" with non-players. So, admittedly, I failed to list a few others that have a shot at the HOF. So in addition to that thread, I'd also pick:

- Vlad (most definitely)
- Griffey (duh!! Forgot about him.)
- Pudge
- Chipper

I used to pull Kent and Raines cards, but I think Kent gets left off ultimately. I like Raines, too, but isn't he off the ballot now that they went to 10 years instead of 15? Or did he get "grandfathered" in for the duration of the 15 original years?

Jimi

Oh I know. That's just my list. :-)

Correct, I believe they are grandfathered in, so he has a little while longer. It will be tough.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by UnVme7

Non active guys for me are:

Randy Johnson
Biggio
Pedro
Smoltz
Pudge
Chipper
Vizquel
Jeff Kent(I know no one likes him but compared to other 2nd baseman, tough to argue)
Piazza
Griffey
Vlad
Thome
And I really like Tim Raines.

If the voters keep Bonds out, I would hope they don't look the other way on Pudge and Piazza.

and, altho we'll never know and he'll always deny it, I have always suspected Kent may have used.

[UnVme7]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

If the voters keep Bonds out, I would hope they don't look the other way on Pudge and Piazza.

and, altho we'll never know and he'll always deny it, I have always suspected Kent may have used.

I hear ya. As for steroids with those 3, Piazza is on the top of the list for me, then Pudge, then Kent. I personally think Kent is clean, just do, but I understand what you mean. Do I think Pudge did? Probably, but there isn't much physical evidence that proves this. Do I think Piazza did? Yep, but suspicion isn't good enough for me, nor is it fair to the player.

[chris6net]

Gil Hodges

[jimivintage]

Originally Posted by chris6net

Gil Hodges

I won't necessarily disagree with you on whether he deserves to get in, but if he hasn't yet, and he hasn't played since the '60s....he ain't getting' in. The Veteran's Committee has kept him off all these years, so I can't see that they'd all of a sudden think he is one.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by UnVme7

I hear ya. As for steroids with those 3, Piazza is on the top of the list for me, then Pudge, then Kent. I personally think Kent is clean, just do, but I understand what you mean. Do I think Pudge did? Probably, but there isn't much physical evidence that proves this. Do I think Piazza did? Yep, but suspicion isn't good enough for me, nor is it fair to the player.

Agreed....suspicion isn't fair.....but not everyone had BOTH overzealous Feds AND two bank rolled newspaper guys after them. If you never really looked, how can you say, one way or another?

Bonds was my guy...I won't deny he used and I won't call it a "witch hunt"...but I will say no other player has had a tenth of the resources directed at him that Bonds did. OK....I'll get off my soapbox.

Carry on.

[sago]

Of those already listed, Griffey, Johnson, and Vlad. The Mets fan in me cannot say Chipper Jones, even though he probably deserves it.