Don't be surprised if..... (HOF debate!)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Vlad Guerrero.

[CobbvLajoie1910]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Vlad Guerrero.

+1. Loved Vlad

Very down with Vizquel. O is a HOFer (Sorry Ozzie, I'm taking Omar at SS).

Too, add Albert Belle. Its criminal neither get the love they deserve.
AB was THE most devastating power hitter of the 90s (save maybe Jr., or Bonds).

Rock Raines is incredibly under-appreciated. I think he eventually gets in.

[z28jd]

I definitely think Ivan Rodriguez was juicing, also there is only one "Pudge" and it's Fisk. When they announced the new testing standards, he came back to camp looking like a bobblehead and said he dropped weight to stay in better shape. He then had his lowest HR total in ten years and lowest SLG since he was 21, then got worse each year after.

[UnVme7]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I definitely think Ivan Rodriguez was juicing, also there is only one "Pudge" and it's Fisk. When they announced the new testing standards, he came back to camp looking like a bobblehead and said he dropped weight to stay in better shape. He then had his lowest HR total in ten years and lowest SLG since he was 21, then got worse each year after.

Maybe so, but I've never seen him on a list, never heard him in Canseco's books(which he was a teammate with for a while and we all know he would've been in there if he did anything), and never failed a test of any sort to my knowledge. My apologies if I didn't read anything on this. If you have an article about him taking steroids, send me a pm on it because I would be interested in reading. His defense alone was incredible. Take as many steroids as you want, you aren't getting that kind of D. That many hits as a catcher is unheard of nowadays.

And I know what year you're talking about when he dropped the weight. Steroids? Maybe, but we don't know that either. Maybe he changed his workout routine, maybe he was sick and lost some weight, or maybe it was around the time he switched trainers. Who knows, but looking at a guy and saying yep, he took steroids, look at his weight. Yeah, that's not quite fair.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by UnVme7

Maybe so, but I've never seen him on a list, never heard him in Canseco's books(which he was a teammate with for a while and we all know he would've been in there if he did anything), and never failed a test of any sort to my knowledge. My apologies if I didn't read anything on this. If you have an article about him taking steroids, send me a pm on it because I would be interested in reading. His defense alone was incredible. Take as many steroids as you want, you aren't getting that kind of D. That many hits as a catcher is unheard of nowadays.

And I know what year you're talking about when he dropped the weight. Steroids? Maybe, but we don't know that either. Maybe he changed his workout routine, maybe he was sick and lost some weight, or maybe it was around the time he switched trainers. Who knows, but looking at a guy and saying yep, he took steroids, look at his weight. Yeah, that's not quite fair.

According to Wiki (gotta be true, right? ), Canseco did claim to have injected Pudge.

A LOT of these steroid guys were great players. I say let them all in. To say it's not fair to assume a guy DID steroids is, to me, just as unfair as assuming a guy did NOT (see: Rodriguez, A and Palmiero, R).

Bagwell had the same weight loss and a similar, lame explanation.

[UnVme7]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

According to Wiki (gotta be true, right? ), Canseco did claim to have injected Pudge.

A LOT of these steroid guys were great players. I say let them all in. To say it's not fair to assume a guy DID steroids is, to me, just as unfair as assuming a guy did NOT (see: Rodriguez, A and Palmiero, R).

Bagwell had the same weight loss and a similar, lame explanation.

I just saw that. Guess I don't remember reading it in the book.

[robw]

Bill James is a lock...just a matter of when. Whether you agree with his philosophies or not, he has changed baseball immensely and is arguably the most influential person in baseball in the past 20-30 years. Every MLB team now evaluates players differently based on his evaluation and statistics.

On a separate note, if anyone does own any of his original Abstracts from 1977-1981, I'm an interested buyer. Let me know. Thanks.

Rob

[Tabe]

Among non-players, the top guy is Marvin Miller. Nobody else is even close as a candidate.

[majordanby]

i think tim raines will eventually get in.

mariano rivera will get in. does trevor hoffman have a good shot?

[almostdone]

I think Hoffman should be in. If he played in a slightly different era, at least not at the same time as Rivera, or in a bigger market he wouldn't be in debate.
Clearly Rivera is the greatest closer of all time but I think Hoffman is an easy second best with third best a ways back. Just my opinion.
Drew

[howard38]

Originally Posted by UnVme7

Maybe so, but I've never seen him on a list, never heard him in Canseco's books(which he was a teammate with for a while and we all know he would've been in there if he did anything), and never failed a test of any sort to my knowledge. My apologies if I didn't read anything on this. If you have an article about him taking steroids, send me a pm on it because I would be interested in reading. His defense alone was incredible. Take as many steroids as you want, you aren't getting that kind of D. That many hits as a catcher is unheard of nowadays.

And I know what year you're talking about when he dropped the weight. Steroids? Maybe, but we don't know that either. Maybe he changed his workout routine, maybe he was sick and lost some weight, or maybe it was around the time he switched trainers. Who knows, but looking at a guy and saying yep, he took steroids, look at his weight. Yeah, that's not quite fair.

"Only God knows."
That was Ivan Rodriguez's response when he was asked if he thought his name was on the list of 100 or so players who tested positive in 2003 testing. It's not proof that he juiced but it's an odd answer if he didn't. Also, Canseco has said that he personally injected him and A-Rod said he witnessed Pudge using PEDs. The testimony of those two doofuses is certainly not enough to convict him but combined w/Pudge's own cryptic words and his muscle gain and subsequent muscle loss there is a compelling case against him.