Some rare and expensive bakery goodies......

brianp-beme · #1 08-27-2014, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

This seller could have stumbled across the hoard, found absolutely no hobby references concerning them, and concluded, quite inaccurately, that they were not real.

I see this as the most plausible answer since we have the various knowledgeable collectors who have actually looked at the cards and determined them to be genuine.

Brian (not the original poster, but instead poster child)

Hey Brian...everyone gets a response from you. Except me. I feel a little left out. Don't you see me waving my arms wildly at the back of the classroom?

Brian (part of the Herpes are for real lynch mob)

Brian Van Horn · #2 08-27-2014, 01:54 PM

Brian,

My deepest apologies, but there was nothing intentional. This thread is keeping me both busy and endlessly amused with timeout for laughing spurts.

Professor Wagstaff here has seen you and can only answer that this particular dealer was clear in his explanation, "They are not real." That tells me he knows about their history and the handwriting on the cards-I did not ask this either-I presume was his. I know. I know.

So, if the guy states "They are not real," he writes what price he wants for the cards and displays them at his table, it says to me the origin is something he has a clear knowledge of and has priced his cards accordingly. Ask yourself this question: If this guy has so little knowledge of his product, how is it he had every "legitimate" (cough, cough) that has ever been known to the hobby?

Bicem · #3 08-27-2014, 01:55 PM

The only thing I don't understand about this thread is why Brian won't even consider that just maybe, the guy was mistaken and didn't know what he had (as others have stated). Like it's not even remotely possible. This honest gentleman (selling fake cards

) could have easily acquired them, had never seen or heard about them before, and thus assumed and truly believed that they were not genuine.

There's zero possiblity of that because he said they were fakes?

nolemmings · #4 08-27-2014, 02:01 PM

Brian,
I believe Benchod believes these were sold from Grand Rapids Mi based upon the following post from (former?) member Jeff McKee, who was an active bidder when these first appeared on Ebay ten years ago:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archive

Posted By: Jeff McKee

Hi Leon
You guys (and Julie) could have wrote to me, I know a lot of you know my ebay handle. I was one of the 2 infamous bidders who ran the first set of these auctions up in price, I think the other is a lurker here as well. Hopefully by me posting it will not upset anyone who may have been thinking to bid on any of these cards listed in the future. I did not post about this last time it was brought up because I am in no position to tell most people on this board anything about cards and I also did not have the card I won to post about. When the Cobb(Manager), Johnson (Washington) and Stengel (Philadelphia) were first listed I was as skeptical as everyone else because the backs of the cards are not like regular 1916 Herpolsheimer's cards and there is no number on the fronts. These were being listed as 1930's cards. When the seller listed the other 3, Kid Gleason(Manager), Milton Stock (St.Louis) and Chester Thomas (Cleveland) I thought why would anyone go through the trouble of reprinting cards of common players with a different card back. I first checked the background of these 6 players and the common year for them all based on the information on the cards is 1921. The fronts are the same as the e121 set and the backs are close to but not the same as the 1921 Holsum Bread back, which is a variation of the e121 set. Also on the back of the 1916 Herpolsheimer's card it says

Herpolsheimer Co.
Boys Fashion Shop
Grand Rapids Mich

on these other cards it says

Herpolsheimer's
Boys Fashion Shop
The Home of Boy's Fashionable clothing
second Floor

The seller of these cards is a selling agent who sells items for people who normally wouldn't list on ebay. He is based in Grand Rapids Mi. and the person who is the owner is also from Grand Rapids, which is where it says Herpolsheimers is located on the back of the 1916 card. The owner was given them by his great grandfather who I was told did not work for Herposheimers, but may have known someone who did. I was also told that there are 69 cards in all, with no doubles. Most of the cards are commons with some HOFer's. The owner was willing to sell the lot for fairly cheap until the other bidder threw out a couple of large numbers and the owner of the cards got greedy and wanted more. Given all of the commons it was not worth the asking price for myself to buy the lot since the set had already been broken up anyway, with 2 of the top 3 cards gone from the set with the selling of the Cobb and Johnson. I had tried to get the owner to look into getting these cards accepted in the hobby, by getting them authenticated and doing the proper research in determining the exact year or years of issue. It is only my opinion that if these cards are legit, that they were from an unissued set of cards. I have only shown the scans of the Stengel to one other person on this board and he is of the opinion that the card(s) look real. I also think the card looks all right, but I am still skeptical and I am probably going to see what SGC has to say about the card. So as I have said it is all speculation as to whether these cards are real or fake or unissued. Any opinions based on the pictures?
Jeff

I vaguely recalled that discussion so pulled it up. In doing so, I found a thread in which you made you very first post, 10 years ago, in which you stated then that these were fake and with which others disagreed. Also, in that thread you spoke of the dealer telling you his belief that these had been made in the '70's, some 20-25 years before you would have spoken to him. So again I ask why you think he was the point of origin?

benchod · #5 08-27-2014, 02:13 PM

Keep posting, Brian
In the last 2 days I've been able to add 5 Herpolsheimers hofers to my collection at rock bottom prices

Brian Van Horn · #6 08-27-2014, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benchod

Keep posting, Brian
In the last 2 days I've been able to add 5 Herpolsheimers hofers to my collection at rock bottom prices

LOL. Great! The side effect is I'm driving down the stock market on 1921 Herpolsheimers.

rhettyeakley · #7 08-27-2014, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benchod

Keep posting, Brian
In the last 2 days I've been able to add 5 Herpolsheimers hofers to my collection at rock bottom prices

Bruce is back!

Brian Van Horn · #8 08-27-2014, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Brian,
I believe Benchod believes these were sold from Grand Rapids Mi based upon the following post from (former?) member Jeff McKee, who was an active bidder when these first appeared on Ebay ten years ago:

I vaguely recalled that discussion so pulled it up. In doing so, I found a thread in which you made you very first post, 10 years ago, in which you stated then that these were fake and with which others disagreed. Also, in that thread you spoke of the dealer telling you his belief that these had been made in the '70's, some 20-25 years before you would have spoken to him. So again I ask why you think he was the point of origin?

Todd,

Can I trouble you for a date on that post? I am a packrat when it comes to e-mails and I may-repeat may-be able to come up with the original eBay seller account.

Thank you,

Brian

nolemmings · #9 08-27-2014, 02:56 PM

Brian,

I closed the window. Just search Herpolsheimer--go to last and then up to the October through December 2004 posts for these various discussions.

Added-- your post was 12/24/2004.

the-illini · #10 08-27-2014, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bicem

The only thing I don't understand about this thread is why Brian won't even consider that just maybe, the guy was mistaken and didn't know what he had (as others have stated). Like it's not even remotely possible. This honest gentleman (selling fake cards

) could have easily acquired them, had never seen or heard about them before, and thus assumed and truly believed that they were not genuine.

There's zero possiblity of that because he said they were fakes?

Yeah, why was this honest gentleman selling fake cards at all?

Brian Van Horn · #11 08-27-2014, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the-illini

Yeah, why was this honest gentleman selling fake cards at all?

Chris,

That question I can not provide an answer to and never will be able to satisfy the curiosity.

T206Collector · #12 08-27-2014, 03:00 PM

Unless we know why the original seller believed them to be fake, his statement that they are fake is without any credibility. That is why no one is able to buy into Brian's story here.

My guess -- pure and simple -- is that the seller acquired them from someone who told him they were fake; or the seller had them appraised by someone he trusted who told him they were fake. Any of those people is just offering an opinion as to authenticity unless they printed them or fabricated them personally.

I have a signed T206 Cobb that James Spence told me was fake. Does that make it so? In the hobby today, you bet it does.

If Brian himself does not know who fabricated them, then the best anyone can hope for is an expert opinion. And the experts on Net54 have clearly weighed in on them being authentic.

This is all that matters.

Brian Van Horn · #13 08-27-2014, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Unless we know why the original seller believed them to be fake, his statement that they are fake is without any credibility. That is why no one is able to buy into Brian's story here.

My guess -- pure and simple -- is that the seller acquired them from someone who told him they were fake; or the seller had them appraised by someone he trusted who told him they were fake. Any of those people is just offering an opinion as to authenticity unless they printed them or fabricated them personally.

I have a signed T206 Cobb that James Spence told me was fake. Does that make it so? In the hobby today, you bet it does.

If Brian himself does not know who fabricated them, then the best anyone can hope for is an expert opinion. And the experts on Net54 have clearly weighed in on them being authentic.

This is all that matters.

The original seller has credibility in my eyes.

Bocabirdman · #14 08-27-2014, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

The original seller has credibility in my eyes.

I have no doubt that you believe this seller to be honest. Honesty does not eliminate the possibility of being wrong. Your trust is commendable but with out the missing piece, the "why he believes them to be fake", I am afraid that this discussion will go unresolved. He saw Big Foot but didn't shoot him and bring back a body. There is nothing to back up his statement (at least that you have conveyed as yet). I have no dog in this fight but, Brian, you are convinced. Everyone else lacks your conviction in his honesty and credibility.

I shall step back now and watch the merry-go-round go 'round.

the-illini · #15 08-27-2014, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

The original seller has credibility in my eyes.

I certainly respect your opinion Brian and I know you are very well-versed in vintage cards, but without a "why" or at least a name for this person, this is the Herpolshimer equivalent of trying to prove the Loch Ness monster is real based on anecdotal evidence.

T206Collector · #16 08-27-2014, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

The original seller has credibility in my eyes.

For any reasons other than the following?

1. He said they were fake
2. He priced them low
3. He wrote the prices on them

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