Tim Kurkjian and the greatest SS's

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

A .311 career average is quite good, nobody will deny that. But a top 5 player of the modern era? No way. He's not even close. And the second best shortstop of all-time? No.

The modern era includes Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial, Ken Griffey Jr, Barry Bonds. That's 5 players off the top of my head that blow Jeter out of the water.

Since 1950, there have been 716 players to rack up 4,000 or more at bats. Jeter is 159th in OPS on that list, and Jeter's offense is far better than his defense.

What makes Derek Jeter one of the 5 best players of the modern era in your mind? How could you possibly arrive at that statement? He's never won an MVP, and he's only placed in the top 5 of the MVP 3 times in 20 seasons. He's never won a batting title. Never led the league in doubles, home runs, triples, stolen bases, OBP, SLG, or OPS. Not even once. He's led his league in hits twice, and runs once. In twenty seasons. And those two seasons he led the league in hits? One season he really did so legitimately, as he hit .349. But in 2012 he had 216 hits...in 683 at bats! He hit .316. Very good, but not great.

Derek Jeter played the majority of his career in an era of offense, and there was nothing truly special about his offensive game. That Jeter was able to hold on to the job in New York for twenty seasons says something. But Jeter has never been the best hitter in baseball. He's never been the best hitter in his league. He's never been the best fielder.

What elevates Derek Jeter to be one of the top 5 players in the modern era when players like Miguel Cabrera, Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle and Carl Yastrzemski have all won the Triple Crown in the American League, and Jeter couldn't lead his league in even a single major offensive category in twenty seasons.

I'm sorry. I know you are entitled to your opinion. I just don't know how even the biggest Derek Jeter fan could say "Derek Jeter is one of the five greatest baseball players of the modern baseball era" with a straight face.

Sorry, I should have specified. I do not include Aaron or Mays to be "modern" players (but that's a completely different argument). I'll rephrase it to say, he has been a top 5 player to play in the past 30 years.

Derek Jeter has amassed the 7th most hits in major league baseball history playing in the most competitive era in baseball. His career offensive WAR ranks him 20th in history and 3rd among players over the last 30 years and 2nd if you exclude A-Rod and his juice.

Leading the league in home runs or winning an MVP award is meaningless. Look at his career stats and you will be very hard pressed to find 5 players who had a more productive career than Jeter over the past 30 years.

As for the original topic, I'll stick to my original list:
T1. Honus Wagner
T1. Derek Jeter
3. Cal Ripken Jr.
4. Barrry Larkin

I would argue that Jeter was better than Wagner purely because of the time period they played in, but without opening that can of worms I'll just concede they're tied.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Leading the league in home runs or winning an MVP award is meaningless.

So being recognized by the sports writers who cover the game as the best player in the game is meaningless? /head scratch

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Look at his career stats and you will be very hard pressed to find 5 players who had a more productive career than Jeter over the past 30 years.
As for the original topic, I'll stick to my original list:
T1. Honus Wagner
T1. Derek Jeter
3. Cal Ripken Jr.
4. Barrry Larkin

Well, of course you'll have a hard time finding anybody who had better numbers over the last 30 years. That's because you're providing such a narrow time frame, a time frame that perfectly fits Jeter's career. Most players, if they even played that long, started playing before your 30 year parameter, meaning the earliest part of their career is being excluded, or they started playing some time after Jeter did, meaning their later years are being excluded.

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I would argue that Jeter was better than Wagner purely because of the time period they played in, but without opening that can of worms I'll just concede they're tied.

Let me get this straight. You're basically saying that Derek Jeter is the greatest shortstop to ever play the game?

[the 'stache]

Ok, last 30 years only. From 1984 on. Players I would put ahead of Jeter.

Ken Griffey Jr
Barry Bonds
Frank Thomas
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Tony Gwynn
Miguel Cabrera
Joe Mauer
Ryne Sandberg
Don Mattingly
Rickey Henderson

I could probably find a few more names, but my mind is too busy trying to wrap itself around how MVP awards, and leading the Majors in major statistical categories doesn't matter.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Ok, last 30 years only. From 1984 on. Players I would put ahead of Jeter.

Ken Griffey Jr
Barry Bonds
Frank Thomas
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Tony Gwynn
Miguel Cabrera
Joe Mauer
Ryne Sandberg
Don Mattingly
Rickey Henderson

I could probably find a few more names, but my mind is too busy trying to wrap itself around how MVP awards, and leading the Majors in major statistical categories doesn't matter.

Mauer? Biggio? Bagwell? Even Sandberg and Mattingly? I take Jeter over all those guys which probably puts him in the tp 5 of the last 30 years. Just my opinion, but his consistent longevity makes it hard to argue against him.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by ksabet

Mauer? Biggio? Bagwell? Even Sandberg and Mattingly? I take Jeter over all those guys which probably puts him in the tp 5 of the last 30 years. Just my opinion, but his consistent longevity makes it hard to argue against him.

1. Ken Griffey Jr was clearly better than Jeter.
2. Barry Bonds, even before he bulked up, was clearly better than Jeter.
3. Rickey Henderson, greatest leadoff hitter in baseball history, I think he was clearly better than Jeter, also.
4. Tony Gwynn, highest career batting average since Ted Williams at .338. 8 batting titles, led the National League in hits seven times, five of which were over 200. And where Jeter's Gold Glove Awards were questionable, nobody questioned Tony Gwynn's defense. He won 5 Gold Gloves. In the first half of his career, before he added weight, he was a fantastic athlete.
5. Albert Pujols. .318 lifetime batting average, 514 home runs, 1,571 RBI in 14 seasons. His average season is .318, 40 HR, 123 RBI. He has 554 doubles, a total of 1,083 extra base hits in 14 seasons. He's also won multiple Gold Glove Awards. I'd take him over Jeter in a heartbeat.
6. Miguel Cabrera. Triple Crown winner. Has won the last three American League batting titles, and the last two MVP Awards. 12 seasons, lifetime .320 AVG, 382 home runs and 1,344 RBI. I would take him over Jeter, too.

Griffey Jr.
Bonds
Henderson
Gwynn
Pujols
Cabrera

There's no way that Jeter cracks the top 5 players in the last thirty years.


I'm going to leave Frank Thomas out, even though I think he's one of the greatest right handed power hitters the game has ever seen.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Never mind I see what you are doing with Bonds.

Vlad Guerrero deserves some consideration for that list too. .318 average with great power numbers.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

1. Ken Griffey Jr was clearly better than Jeter.
2. Barry Bonds, even before he bulked up, was clearly better than Jeter.
3. Rickey Henderson, greatest leadoff hitter in baseball history, I think he was clearly better than Jeter, also.
4. Tony Gwynn, highest career batting average since Ted Williams at .338. 8 batting titles, led the National League in hits seven times, five of which were over 200. And where Jeter's Gold Glove Awards were questionable, nobody questioned Tony Gwynn's defense. He won 5 Gold Gloves. In the first half of his career, before he added weight, he was a fantastic athlete.
5. Albert Pujols. .318 lifetime batting average, 514 home runs, 1,571 RBI in 14 seasons. His average season is .318, 40 HR, 123 RBI. He has 554 doubles, a total of 1,083 extra base hits in 14 seasons. He's also won multiple Gold Glove Awards. I'd take him over Jeter in a heartbeat.
6. Miguel Cabrera. Triple Crown winner. Has won the last three American League batting titles, and the last two MVP Awards. 12 seasons, lifetime .320 AVG, 382 home runs and 1,344 RBI. I would take him over Jeter, too.

Griffey Jr.
Bonds
Henderson
Gwynn
Pujols
Cabrera

There's no way that Jeter cracks the top 5 players in the last thirty years.


I'm going to leave Frank Thomas out, even though I think he's one of the greatest right handed power hitters the game has ever seen.

For the sake of the arguments I will concede top 7. Close enough.

Funny how much Yankee bias (for and against) crops up in these discussions.

[Al C.risafulli]

It is awarded to the best player in the league.

I believe it is not. It is awarded to the player that the sportswriters in the BWAA think had the best season.

In 1991, those writers thought that Terry Pendleton's season was better than Barry Bonds', despite the fact that Bonds outperformed Pendleton in virtually every meaningful statistical category.

In 2006, the writers thought that Justin Morneau had a better season than Derek Jeter, despite the fact that he played a much easier position, had a lower WAR, fewer runs, fewer hits, a batting average .20 points lower, and on base percentage .42 points lower, and scored 21 fewer runs. But, you know, Morneau had more RBIs.

History is littered with examples where the rightful winner of the MVP was overlooked by writers who simply don't get it. They value RBI too highly, they value home runs too much, they usually discount defense and modern analytics, they place inordinate emphasis on whether the team was a winner, and they take character into consideration (which is why Albert Belle never won an MVP despite being one of the greatest players in the game in the 90s).

-Al

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

1. Ken Griffey Jr was clearly better than Jeter.
2. Barry Bonds, even before he bulked up, was clearly better than Jeter.
3. Rickey Henderson, greatest leadoff hitter in baseball history, I think he was clearly better than Jeter, also.
4. Tony Gwynn, highest career batting average since Ted Williams at .338. 8 batting titles, led the National League in hits seven times, five of which were over 200. And where Jeter's Gold Glove Awards were questionable, nobody questioned Tony Gwynn's defense. He won 5 Gold Gloves. In the first half of his career, before he added weight, he was a fantastic athlete.
5. Albert Pujols. .318 lifetime batting average, 514 home runs, 1,571 RBI in 14 seasons. His average season is .318, 40 HR, 123 RBI. He has 554 doubles, a total of 1,083 extra base hits in 14 seasons. He's also won multiple Gold Glove Awards. I'd take him over Jeter in a heartbeat.
6. Miguel Cabrera. Triple Crown winner. Has won the last three American League batting titles, and the last two MVP Awards. 12 seasons, lifetime .320 AVG, 382 home runs and 1,344 RBI. I would take him over Jeter, too.

Griffey Jr.
Bonds
Henderson
Gwynn
Pujols
Cabrera

There's no way that Jeter cracks the top 5 players in the last thirty years.

That's a great list, but I disagree with some of the above.

Barry Bonds: Normally I exclude him entirely because of the steroids, but if you exclude his steroid years (most people start it around 1998, but some people think it even started when he was on the Pirates), his career numbers are impressive, but not even close to Jeter's. His season stats are out of this world though. You can pretty much take any one of Bond's season and extrapolate it across his entire career and he will be better than Jeter, but I always exclude him, because you honestly will never know what his career would have been. Honestly, if you don't care about steroids or whatever, Bonds was the best player in the history of baseball and it's not even close.

Henderson: I won't argue Henderson. I said before in this thread I thought he was better.

Gwynn: I won't argue Gwynn.

Pujols: I think it's too early in his career. Right now, he's a first ballot Hall of Fame baseball player. He had the best 10 year run out of any hitter ever IMO. But over the past couple years he seems more like a career .260, 20 home run guy. If Pujols keeps going with this downward trend, I would take Jeter's career over Pujols, but if Pujols turns things around, it'll clearly be Pujols 10 times out of 10. So it's too early. Also, hopefully he was clean throughout his career!

Cabrera: Same with Pujols, it's too early. I think Pujols and Cabrera deserve a spot on the top 20 all time list (assuming they can have above average finishes to their careers), but both players are years from retiring. Anything can happen.


Ken Griffey Jr: This is a lot closer than most people realize. Here are there 162 game average numbers:

G R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
162 101 169 32 2 38 111 11 80 108 0.284 0.370 0.538 0.907 136
162 115 205 32 4 16 77 21 64 109 0.311 0.379 0.442 0.821 116

Griffey hit more home runs granted, but he had almost 30 points less in his career batting average and half as many stolen bases as Jeter did. Everything else; doubles, triples, walks, strike outs are about the same. The only thing Griffey did that Jeter didn't was hit home runs, but Griffey never had a 200 hit season, he only hit above .310 once in his career while Jeter averaged above .310 throughout the entirety of his career. Really, it would just be a preference argument at this point. Offensive WAR gives the edge to Jeter, OPS+ gives it to Griffey. Do you like home runs or hits? Otherwise they were very similar.

My list for the past 30 years would be:

1. Rickey Henderson
2. Tony Gwynn
3. Ken Griffey Jr.
4. Derek Jeter (very close)
5. Albert Pujols

I think when Miguel Cabrera retires he will knock Jeter off the list and Pujols will (hopefully) move up to third.

My list for the past 30 years including Steroid Users:
1. Barry Bonds
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Rickey Henderson
4. Tony Gwynn
5. Ken Griffey Jr.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Cabrera: Same with Pujols, it's too early. I think Pujols and Cabrera deserve a spot on the top 20 all time list (assuming they can have above average finishes to their careers), but both players are years from retiring. Anything can happen.

Cabrera is miles ahead of Jeter, even right now. Yeah, Miggy's defense is bad (not super-horrible but bad, mainly because of his limited range) but his offense is off the charts. Cabrera's got 12 years in the majors now and he's been a super-elite player for 11 of them. He's won a Triple Crown and consistently put up huge numbers. His average season (.320/35/123, OPS+ of 153) is better than Jeter's best season.

I would take Miggy over Jeter any day, all day.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by ksabet

Mauer? Biggio? Bagwell? Even Sandberg and Mattingly? I take Jeter over all those guys which probably puts him in the tp 5 of the last 30 years. Just my opinion, but his consistent longevity makes it hard to argue against him.

Not sure why it's crazy to take Mauer over Jeter. Mauer is a significantly better offensive player (3 batting titles, a slugging title, and an OPS+ title) while playing legitimate (not the Derek Jeter version) Gold Glove defensive at a super premium position. In all honesty, the only thing Jeter has over Mauer is longevity - a not-insubstantial point in his favor. Point being, however, that it's not crazy to put Mauer up there vs Jeter.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

So being recognized by the sports writers who cover the game as the best player in the game is meaningless? /head scratch

Yes, it's meaningless. By your logic of more MVP's=better players - so Al Rosen was a better player than Ozzie Smith, Al Kaline, Bill Dickey, Duke Snider, Mel Ott and Tony Gwynn.

Major head scratch is right...

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Well, of course you'll have a hard time finding anybody who had better numbers over the last 30 years. That's because you're providing such a narrow time frame, a time frame that perfectly fits Jeter's career. Most players, if they even played that long, started playing before your 30 year parameter, meaning the earliest part of their career is being excluded, or they started playing some time after Jeter did, meaning their later years are being excluded.

Why doesn't that work? Were there not great players? There have been more professional baseball players playing over the past 30 year than any other 30 year period in the history of the sport. So why can't I use this sample size? That's when he played. That's when tens of thousands of players played and Jeter had a better career than all of them less maybe 4 or 5. That's pretty damn impressive. Even expand it to include every player who has played in the past 30 years and you'll still be hard pressed to find players with a better career.

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Let me get this straight. You're basically saying that Derek Jeter is the greatest shortstop to ever play the game?

Is that a stretch? Most members here have him on their top 5 list all time (and several have him at 1 and 2). Of the list, he's the only player to have played through the steroid era. He's the only player to face known steroid users. Wagner played before the league was integrated, today 38% of the league are minorities. Imagine what Jeter's stats would have been if 38% of the league was replaced by white minor league pitchers. We'll never know, so I'll just leave it at they were both the best of their time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Joe Mauer better than Jeter?
Biggio?