Tim Kurkjian and the greatest SS's

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by ksabet

Mauer? Biggio? Bagwell? Even Sandberg and Mattingly? I take Jeter over all those guys which probably puts him in the tp 5 of the last 30 years. Just my opinion, but his consistent longevity makes it hard to argue against him.

1. Ken Griffey Jr was clearly better than Jeter.
2. Barry Bonds, even before he bulked up, was clearly better than Jeter.
3. Rickey Henderson, greatest leadoff hitter in baseball history, I think he was clearly better than Jeter, also.
4. Tony Gwynn, highest career batting average since Ted Williams at .338. 8 batting titles, led the National League in hits seven times, five of which were over 200. And where Jeter's Gold Glove Awards were questionable, nobody questioned Tony Gwynn's defense. He won 5 Gold Gloves. In the first half of his career, before he added weight, he was a fantastic athlete.
5. Albert Pujols. .318 lifetime batting average, 514 home runs, 1,571 RBI in 14 seasons. His average season is .318, 40 HR, 123 RBI. He has 554 doubles, a total of 1,083 extra base hits in 14 seasons. He's also won multiple Gold Glove Awards. I'd take him over Jeter in a heartbeat.
6. Miguel Cabrera. Triple Crown winner. Has won the last three American League batting titles, and the last two MVP Awards. 12 seasons, lifetime .320 AVG, 382 home runs and 1,344 RBI. I would take him over Jeter, too.

Griffey Jr.
Bonds
Henderson
Gwynn
Pujols
Cabrera

There's no way that Jeter cracks the top 5 players in the last thirty years.


I'm going to leave Frank Thomas out, even though I think he's one of the greatest right handed power hitters the game has ever seen.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Never mind I see what you are doing with Bonds.

Vlad Guerrero deserves some consideration for that list too. .318 average with great power numbers.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

1. Ken Griffey Jr was clearly better than Jeter.
2. Barry Bonds, even before he bulked up, was clearly better than Jeter.
3. Rickey Henderson, greatest leadoff hitter in baseball history, I think he was clearly better than Jeter, also.
4. Tony Gwynn, highest career batting average since Ted Williams at .338. 8 batting titles, led the National League in hits seven times, five of which were over 200. And where Jeter's Gold Glove Awards were questionable, nobody questioned Tony Gwynn's defense. He won 5 Gold Gloves. In the first half of his career, before he added weight, he was a fantastic athlete.
5. Albert Pujols. .318 lifetime batting average, 514 home runs, 1,571 RBI in 14 seasons. His average season is .318, 40 HR, 123 RBI. He has 554 doubles, a total of 1,083 extra base hits in 14 seasons. He's also won multiple Gold Glove Awards. I'd take him over Jeter in a heartbeat.
6. Miguel Cabrera. Triple Crown winner. Has won the last three American League batting titles, and the last two MVP Awards. 12 seasons, lifetime .320 AVG, 382 home runs and 1,344 RBI. I would take him over Jeter, too.

Griffey Jr.
Bonds
Henderson
Gwynn
Pujols
Cabrera

There's no way that Jeter cracks the top 5 players in the last thirty years.


I'm going to leave Frank Thomas out, even though I think he's one of the greatest right handed power hitters the game has ever seen.

For the sake of the arguments I will concede top 7. Close enough.

Funny how much Yankee bias (for and against) crops up in these discussions.

[Al C.risafulli]

It is awarded to the best player in the league.

I believe it is not. It is awarded to the player that the sportswriters in the BWAA think had the best season.

In 1991, those writers thought that Terry Pendleton's season was better than Barry Bonds', despite the fact that Bonds outperformed Pendleton in virtually every meaningful statistical category.

In 2006, the writers thought that Justin Morneau had a better season than Derek Jeter, despite the fact that he played a much easier position, had a lower WAR, fewer runs, fewer hits, a batting average .20 points lower, and on base percentage .42 points lower, and scored 21 fewer runs. But, you know, Morneau had more RBIs.

History is littered with examples where the rightful winner of the MVP was overlooked by writers who simply don't get it. They value RBI too highly, they value home runs too much, they usually discount defense and modern analytics, they place inordinate emphasis on whether the team was a winner, and they take character into consideration (which is why Albert Belle never won an MVP despite being one of the greatest players in the game in the 90s).

-Al

[ksabet]

Don't forget that somehow Andre Dawson won on the worst team in baseball despite Ozzie outplaying him in every statistical category except HR and RBI and having a worse War by almost 3 points.

[sycks22]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

I believe it is not. It is awarded to the player that the sportswriters in the BWAA think had the best season.

In 1991, those writers thought that Terry Pendleton's season was better than Barry Bonds', despite the fact that Bonds outperformed Pendleton in virtually every meaningful statistical category.

In 2006, the writers thought that Justin Morneau had a better season than Derek Jeter, despite the fact that he played a much easier position, had a lower WAR, fewer runs, fewer hits, a batting average .20 points lower, and on base percentage .42 points lower, and scored 21 fewer runs. But, you know, Morneau had more RBIs.

History is littered with examples where the rightful winner of the MVP was overlooked by writers who simply don't get it. They value RBI too highly, they value home runs too much, they usually discount defense and modern analytics, they place inordinate emphasis on whether the team was a winner, and they take character into consideration (which is why Albert Belle never won an MVP despite being one of the greatest players in the game in the 90s).

-Al

Let's look at how valuable a player is to their team: If you take out Morneau in 2006 you have:
Jason Bartlett
Nick Punto
Lew Ford
Rondell White
Luis Castillo

If you take Jeter out of the Yanks you still have:
Cano
A-rod
Damon
Giambi (When he was good)
Posada
Abreu
Matsui

Jeter was 6th on his own team in Hr's, 3rd in RBI's

[nolemmings]

Now now Pete, be fair. While I agree with you completely that Morneau fully deserved the 2006 MVP (and Jeter is my favorite player), you left out Mauer, who himself was 6th in MVP voting, Torii Hunter (31 HR) and a decent Michael Cuddyer (24 HR) from your list. Justin had some helpers in that lineup and some decent pitching with Johann and Liriano-- they won 96 games after all.

Still, shame on Al for taking a pot shot at Morneau's award

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

I believe it is not. It is awarded to the player that the sportswriters in the BWAA think had the best season.

The best season on a playoff contending team, too.

Player A hit .319 scoring a league leading 108 runs, with 41 a league leading HR and 112 RBI in 2012. Led the league with a .987 OPS. Finished second in the MVP because his team was only 83-79.
Player B hit .317 scoring 97 runs, with 24 HR and 84 RBI in 2013. Finished the season with a .911 OPS. Won the MVP.

Now, granted, Ryan Braun probably should have won the MVP over Buster Posey in 2012. But the Giants were a better team, and Ryan Braun tested positive for elevated testosterone in the 2011 playoffs. Posey did have a great year, winning the batting title (doing so while coming back from a horrific leg injury the year before). But it shows how crazy the MVP race is.

[the 'stache]

If you ask me, this is how the MVP should have gone, and should go this year:

2011: Ryan Braun and Matt Kemp co MVP
2012: Ryan Braun
2013: Paul Goldschmidt
2014: as of right now, Clayton Kershaw

Braun's positive test had no bearing on the MVP, which is a regular season award. Dodger fans have been so incensed that Braun won, even before the test. But their numbers are so close, Braun's leading his team to the postseason was the difference:

Braun .332 AVG, 109 runs, 33 HR, 111 RBI, 33 for 39 (85%) stolen bases. 77 extra base hits. 58 walks, 93 strikeouts. .597 SLG .994 OPS.
Kemp. .324 AVG, 115 runs, 39 HR, 126 RBI, 40 for 51 (78%) stolen bases. 76 extra base hits. 74 walks, 159 strikeouts .586 SLG. .986 OPS.

Braun lost the batting title on the last day of the season. He went 0-4. Jose Reyes, the winner, dragged a bunt in his first at bat, then got pulled out of the game.

The way I look at it, both men put up Triple Crown worthy numbers. I think Kemp was outstanding, and should have shared the award.

In 2012, while everybody was talking up Cabrera's Triple Crown, Braun was chasing one of his own. He won the home run title. Chase Headley was ahead of Braun by one RBI on the last day of the season, and he got two more. The one Braun had really no chance at was the Batting title. He ended at .319, and Posey hit .336. But if you compare Braun and Cabrera's numbers, they were pretty close.

Average:
Cabrera: .330
Braun: .319

Runs scored:
Cabrera: 109
Braun: 108

Hits:
Cabrera: 200
Braun: 191

Home runs:
Cabrera: 44
Braun: 41

RBI:
Cabrera: 139
Braun: 112

Stolen Bases:
Braun: 30
Cabrera: 4

On Base:
Cabrera: .393
Braun .391

Slugging:
Cabrera: .606
Braun: .595

OPS:
Cabrera: .999
Braun: .987

Total Bases:
Cabrera: 377
Braun: 356

Runs created:
Braun: 142
Cabrera: 139

Extra Base Hits:
Cabrera: 84
Braun: 80

Offensive win %:
Braun: .773
Cabrera: .745

Compare those seasons to the one that McCutchen had last year and won the MVP. His season isn't even close.

[the 'stache]

Oh, I'm going to get into the Jeter vs Griffey Jr discussion. There is no comparison between them. Ken Griffey Jr may be one of the top 5 offensive players of the last 50 years. Jeter..isn't.

Here's something to chew on.

Seasons with 100 + strikeouts:
Derek Jeter 9
Ken Griffey Jr 5

Career home runs:
Derek Jeter 259
Ken Griffey Jr 630

Derek Jeter is 14th all-time in strikeouts. How does a guy who has hit more than 20 home runs in a season 3 times have 1,819 strike outs?

Oh yes, we're going to dive deeply into this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bill James has an interesting analysis where, as of 2002, he claims Craig Biggio was better than Griffey Jr. I will see if I can find it online. But the essence of it was that he pointed out a lot of categories where Griffey didn't do so well, aside from HR and RBI. Yeah, perhaps like asking other than that Mrs. Lincoln how was the play.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Oh, I'm going to get into the Jeter vs Griffey Jr discussion. There is no comparison between them. Ken Griffey Jr may be one of the top 5 offensive players of the last 50 years. Jeter..isn't.

Here's something to chew on.

Seasons with 100 + strikeouts:
Derek Jeter 9
Ken Griffey Jr 5

Career home runs:
Derek Jeter 259
Ken Griffey Jr 630

Derek Jeter is 14th all-time in strikeouts. How does a guy who has hit more than 20 home runs in a season 3 times have 1,819 strike outs?

Oh yes, we're going to dive deeply into this.

I don't think it is fair at all to compare two players ONLY using home runs and strikeouts. I think everyone here will agree.

Besides, Ken Griffey Jr. struck out MORE that Derek Jeter did. Griffey struck out 1,779 times in 11,304 plate appearances; or 15.7% of the time. Jeter struck out 1,819 times in 12,435 plate appearances; or 14.6% of the time. The amount of 100+ strike out seasons is as relevant as the amount of 172 hit season. It isn't relevant at all.

Here is a comparison of the two players over their 162 game average:

Hits:
Derek Jeter: 205
Ken Griffey Jr.: 169

Runs:
Derek Jeter: 115
Ken Griffey Jr.: 101

Doubles:
Derek Jeter: 32
Ken Griffey Jr.: 32

Home Runs:
Derek Jeter: 15
Ken Griffey Jr.: 38

RBI:
Derek Jeter: 77
Ken Griffey Jr.: 111

Stolen Bases:
Derek Jeter: 21
Ken Griffey Jr.: 11

Strike Outs
Derek Jeter: 109
Ken Griffey Jr.: 108

Batting Average:
Derek Jeter: .311
Ken Griffey Jr.: .284

OPS:
Derek Jeter: .821
Ken Griffey Jr.: .907

The two are nearly identical except Griffey hit more home runs, Jeter hit more singles and stole more bases. It's a toss up as to which a coach would prefer. From purely a statistical standpoint, Derek Jeter wins out. He has a marginally higher Offensive WAR, but it's so close that it's almost negligible. Personally, I would take Jeter because he plays shortstop, but they would both help a team.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

1. Ken Griffey Jr was clearly better than Jeter.
2. Barry Bonds, even before he bulked up, was clearly better than Jeter.
3. Rickey Henderson, greatest leadoff hitter in baseball history, I think he was clearly better than Jeter, also.
4. Tony Gwynn, highest career batting average since Ted Williams at .338. 8 batting titles, led the National League in hits seven times, five of which were over 200. And where Jeter's Gold Glove Awards were questionable, nobody questioned Tony Gwynn's defense. He won 5 Gold Gloves. In the first half of his career, before he added weight, he was a fantastic athlete.
5. Albert Pujols. .318 lifetime batting average, 514 home runs, 1,571 RBI in 14 seasons. His average season is .318, 40 HR, 123 RBI. He has 554 doubles, a total of 1,083 extra base hits in 14 seasons. He's also won multiple Gold Glove Awards. I'd take him over Jeter in a heartbeat.
6. Miguel Cabrera. Triple Crown winner. Has won the last three American League batting titles, and the last two MVP Awards. 12 seasons, lifetime .320 AVG, 382 home runs and 1,344 RBI. I would take him over Jeter, too.

Griffey Jr.
Bonds
Henderson
Gwynn
Pujols
Cabrera

There's no way that Jeter cracks the top 5 players in the last thirty years.

That's a great list, but I disagree with some of the above.

Barry Bonds: Normally I exclude him entirely because of the steroids, but if you exclude his steroid years (most people start it around 1998, but some people think it even started when he was on the Pirates), his career numbers are impressive, but not even close to Jeter's. His season stats are out of this world though. You can pretty much take any one of Bond's season and extrapolate it across his entire career and he will be better than Jeter, but I always exclude him, because you honestly will never know what his career would have been. Honestly, if you don't care about steroids or whatever, Bonds was the best player in the history of baseball and it's not even close.

Henderson: I won't argue Henderson. I said before in this thread I thought he was better.

Gwynn: I won't argue Gwynn.

Pujols: I think it's too early in his career. Right now, he's a first ballot Hall of Fame baseball player. He had the best 10 year run out of any hitter ever IMO. But over the past couple years he seems more like a career .260, 20 home run guy. If Pujols keeps going with this downward trend, I would take Jeter's career over Pujols, but if Pujols turns things around, it'll clearly be Pujols 10 times out of 10. So it's too early. Also, hopefully he was clean throughout his career!

Cabrera: Same with Pujols, it's too early. I think Pujols and Cabrera deserve a spot on the top 20 all time list (assuming they can have above average finishes to their careers), but both players are years from retiring. Anything can happen.


Ken Griffey Jr: This is a lot closer than most people realize. Here are there 162 game average numbers:

G R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
162 101 169 32 2 38 111 11 80 108 0.284 0.370 0.538 0.907 136
162 115 205 32 4 16 77 21 64 109 0.311 0.379 0.442 0.821 116

Griffey hit more home runs granted, but he had almost 30 points less in his career batting average and half as many stolen bases as Jeter did. Everything else; doubles, triples, walks, strike outs are about the same. The only thing Griffey did that Jeter didn't was hit home runs, but Griffey never had a 200 hit season, he only hit above .310 once in his career while Jeter averaged above .310 throughout the entirety of his career. Really, it would just be a preference argument at this point. Offensive WAR gives the edge to Jeter, OPS+ gives it to Griffey. Do you like home runs or hits? Otherwise they were very similar.

My list for the past 30 years would be:

1. Rickey Henderson
2. Tony Gwynn
3. Ken Griffey Jr.
4. Derek Jeter (very close)
5. Albert Pujols

I think when Miguel Cabrera retires he will knock Jeter off the list and Pujols will (hopefully) move up to third.

My list for the past 30 years including Steroid Users:
1. Barry Bonds
2. Alex Rodriguez
3. Rickey Henderson
4. Tony Gwynn
5. Ken Griffey Jr.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Cabrera: Same with Pujols, it's too early. I think Pujols and Cabrera deserve a spot on the top 20 all time list (assuming they can have above average finishes to their careers), but both players are years from retiring. Anything can happen.

Cabrera is miles ahead of Jeter, even right now. Yeah, Miggy's defense is bad (not super-horrible but bad, mainly because of his limited range) but his offense is off the charts. Cabrera's got 12 years in the majors now and he's been a super-elite player for 11 of them. He's won a Triple Crown and consistently put up huge numbers. His average season (.320/35/123, OPS+ of 153) is better than Jeter's best season.

I would take Miggy over Jeter any day, all day.