Tim Kurkjian and the greatest SS's

the 'stache · #1 08-04-2014, 02:13 AM

I've been watching baseball for a really long time. I've seen a lot of incredible players in my life. But I will go to my grave, God willing many years from now, swearing that Robin Yount was the best baseball player I've ever seen. The kid could do it all. He was a Major League shortstop at 18 years old long before everybody was hyping Bryce Harper up for being a Major Leaguer so young.

He is the only player in Major League history to win an MVP as a shortstop and a center fielder. Only Yount, Stan Musial, Hank Greenberg and Alex Rodriguez have ever won MVPs at two different positions. Greenberg and Musial both won as outfielders and first basemen, Rodriguez won as a shortstop and third baseman.

He is the only player in World Series history to have four hits in a game twice, and he did that in the same series. In the '82 World Series he hit .414 with a 1.087 OPS. And Robin Yount is really the reason the Brewers went to the post season at all in 1982. With the Brewers and Orioles tied atop the American League Eastern Division on the last day of the regular season, Robin Yount single-handedly destroyed the Orioles with his defensive play, and his bat. He had a triple and two home runs in 5 ABs.

Yount's 1,731 hits were the most by any Major League player in the 80s.

When you look at some of his stats, like his home runs, you're not blown away. 251 home runs is good for a Major Leaguer, better for a shortstop. 271 stolen bases is also good. But when you start coming up with lists of stats, and Yount's name is one of only a few names, you see how great he was.

Like the list of Major League players with 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 500 doubles and 100 triples in their career:
Willie Mays
Robin Yount. That's it.

Major Leaguers with 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 3,000 hits and 500 doubles:
Willie Mays
Robin Yount
Rickie Henderson
Craig Biggio
Derek Jeter

How about players with career WAR 75.00 or higher, 2,500 hits, 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases:
Barry Bonds
Alex Rodriguez
Willie Mays
Joe Morgan
Rickey Henderson
Robin Yount

When you take his career in the aggregate, you really start to see how great Yount was.

Notice that Jeter was on one of these lists? Ripken isn't on any. Nor is Ernie Banks. I'd say Wagner, too, but he played in the dead ball era. But let's exclude home runs.

Players with a career WAR 75.00 or higher, with 2,500 hits, 250 stolen bases and 750 extra base hits:
Barry Bonds
Willie Mays
Ty Cobb
Tris Speaker
Alex Rodriguez
Honus Wagner
Rickey Henderson
Joe Morgan
Robin Yount
Paul Molitor

When you're on a list of only ten players in Major League history to have done something, and Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker and Honus Wagner are three of those ten, you've had a great career.

clydepepper · #2 08-04-2014, 02:47 AM

Impressive argument and research to back it up, Bill.

However, in my opinion, your statement overvalues stolen bases - which is the easiest way to exclude Ripken.

Let's remember what the subject is specifically, not which player who played shortstop (for Yount & Banks) is the best overall player...

just which is the best shortstop.

JasonD08 · #3 08-04-2014, 06:36 AM

Now factor in hitting and its a different picture. Ozzie is on top without nobody close if we are only talking about the position defensively. Like I said if we factor in offensive numbers it may be a lot different. We did not watch but I would go out on a limb and say there is no way Wagner got to the balls he did. Yount was extremely talented but no where close on defensive range. Vizquel would be the only one closer. Jeter, Ripken, Vaughan, Yount no. If you go by offensive numbers then Ozzie would not be in top 5.

bbcard1 · #4 08-04-2014, 07:05 AM

Not to take this thread in an entirely different direction, but when I grew up in the 1970s which is well before many statistical refinements were made, it was generally acknowledged that Joe Cronin was the second be shortstop to all time, certainly the best ever in the AL. Not even in the conversation anymore and has been supplanted by many of his contemporaries.

jbhofmann · #5 08-04-2014, 07:26 AM

I agree that Larkin is often way undervalued. It may sound harsh, but if the cat in St. Louis isn't doing back flips doesn't have the legacy he has.

Larkin was a hell of a defensive SS that also hit. If Smith was in the AL, he'd likely have had close to 10 GG.

brewing · #6 08-04-2014, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbhofmann

I agree that Larkin is often way undervalued. It may sound harsh, but if the cat in St. Louis isn't doing back flips doesn't have the legacy he has.

Larkin was a hell of a defensive SS that also hit. If Smith was in the AL, he'd likely have had close to 10 GG.

Underrated is Alan Trammell.

BB Ref lifetime WAR
Larkin 70.2
Trammell 70.4

Larkin 1st ballot HoFer, and Trammell nowhere close to induction.

jhs5120 · #7 08-04-2014, 08:03 AM

Most people do not realize just how good Derek Jeter was. Derek Jeter ranks 20th in career offensive WAR. TWENTIETH! He's ahead of such greats as Jimmie Foxx, Ken Griffey Jr., Eddie Mathews and Joe DiMaggio.

Of the 19 players in baseball history to have a more productive offensive career, only THREE of them played in the last 30 years (Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez and Rickey Henderson) and of those three only Henderson hasn't been linked to steroids.

I think:
T1. Honus Wagner
T1. Derek Jeter
3. Cal Ripken Jr.
4. Barrry Larkin

Derek has been the best shortstop since integration and Wagner prior. It's a given that pre-integration baseball was a less competitive time in the sport, but I do not want to underscore Wagner's career because of it.

I discount Alex Rodriguez because of his inflated numbers and his time at 3B.

bbcard1 · #8 08-04-2014, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Most people do not realize just how good Derek Jeter was. Derek Jeter ranks 20th in career offensive WAR. TWENTIETH! He's ahead of such greats as Jimmie Foxx, Ken Griffey Jr., Eddie Mathews and Joe DiMaggio.

I think formulas cease to become useful when you can look at something an simply tell it is not true. I don't think any serious fan who prefer to have Jeter over DiMaggio or Foxx.

the 'stache · #9 08-05-2014, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Most people do not realize just how good Derek Jeter was. Derek Jeter ranks 20th in career offensive WAR. TWENTIETH! He's ahead of such greats as Jimmie Foxx, Ken Griffey Jr., Eddie Mathews and Joe DiMaggio.

Of the 19 players in baseball history to have a more productive offensive career, only THREE of them played in the last 30 years (Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez and Rickey Henderson) and of those three only Henderson hasn't been linked to steroids.

I think:
T1. Honus Wagner
T1. Derek Jeter
3. Cal Ripken Jr.
4. Barrry Larkin

Derek has been the best shortstop since integration and Wagner prior. It's a given that pre-integration baseball was a less competitive time in the sport, but I do not want to underscore Wagner's career because of it.

I discount Alex Rodriguez because of his inflated numbers and his time at 3B.

No way is Jeter the second best shortstop. Not even close. He's played a lot of games at shortstop. That's why he appears so high on your list. While there is something to be said for playing the position for so long, he's never been the most dynamic player at his position.

Jayworld · #10 08-04-2014, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Not to take this thread in an entirely different direction, but when I grew up in the 1970s which is well before many statistical refinements were made, it was generally acknowledged that Joe Cronin was the second be shortstop to all time, certainly the best ever in the AL. Not even in the conversation anymore and has been supplanted by many of his contemporaries.

I'm right there with you on Joe Cronin; can't believe he's not on more lists here in the thread. Wagner was the best at the position, but Cronin should be up there�.

the 'stache · #11 08-04-2014, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Impressive argument and research to back it up, Bill.

However, in my opinion, your statement overvalues stolen bases - which is the easiest way to exclude Ripken.

I know that I did briefly mention statistical plateaus that Yount reached, and how it was more impressive that Yount reached them as a shortstop. But the statistical comps I put up immediately afterword weren't meant to exclude Ripken, or anybody else. In fact, they weren't meant to be a comparison to other shortstops at all. They were really put up there to place the entirety of Yount's career numbers into context.

When looking at Yount's career numbers, people often tried to dismiss him by saying he only hit 250 home runs, or only hit .285. They don't take into consideration that Yount only played 64 games in the minor leagues, that he was picked out of high school, sent to the minors for a few months, then inserted into a Major League lineup at 18. He learned how to hit in the Majors. He was never afforded the time most baseball players get to perfect their craft. His career batting average suffers because while most Major League players don't come up to the big leagues now until they're 24 or 25, Yount was a teenager when he got the job. If you look at what Yount did from age 24 on, he was a career .293 hitter. So, as I so often try to do in these types of discussions, I am trying to place Yount's career as a whole into a proper context. What I was attempting to do, Raymond, was simply show that his career metrics, taken together, were more impressive than any of them were alone.

250 home runs alone isn't impressive.
250 home runs and 250 stolen bases is a little more impressive.
250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, and 2,500 hits is more impressive,
250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 2,500 hits, and a 75.00 career WAR is even more impressive.
250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 2,500 career hits, a 75.00 career WAR, and 500 doubles...is even more impressive.

See what I'm trying to get at? There were a lot of players that hit more home runs than Yount. There were also a lot of players that stole more bases than Yount. But how many did all the things that Yount did? He did a lot of things very well. And that, I think more than anything, is the greatest compliment that could be paid to Yount. He could do so many things well. He had really good power, had really good speed. He was a tremendous fielder, he was a great pure hitter. He was a clutch hitter. And he was a leader.

Robin Yount's greatness cannot simply be measured in a few stats. You really had to see him play to truly appreciate just how gifted he was. People often said that Joe DiMaggio made everything look so easy. Well, that's Yount. When you looked at him in the field, he was like Tulowitzki is now. So graceful. The way he broke to the ball. The way he stabbed the ball on a short bounce, the way he set himself while momentum was carrying his body towards third base, and let loose a perfect strike to first base. Everything the guy did was like watching poetry. He did the things that just don't show up in the box score. While baseball, more than any sport, lends itself to statistical analysis, numbers cannot capture the "wow" factor that some players had. One might look at Mickey Mantle's career stats, see his 536 home runs, and think "ok, he was 15th or 16th all-time in home runs." While that is an accurate statement, in a way, it does a disservice to Mantle. A home run that just squeaks over the wall in right field, where the fence is 318 feet, counts the same as a home run that hits the facade of the upper deck at Yankee Stadium. But are they the same hit? Absolutely not. Anybody that was at a Yankees game in the 50s and early 60s will tell you that Mantle could have hit a ball to heaven so God could see the stitches. And while Yankee fans might still worship Mantle in a way, and non Yankee fans, or baseball fans that didn't see him play might roll there eyes, there's a reason he's so revered today, and it's not because he looked like somebody out of central casting in Hollywood. When Mantle hit a home run, he put the fear of God in opposing pitchers.

Yet that doesn't show up in the box score.

Yount was like that in a different way. When he was on, the Brewers were going to win. He was going to do whatever it took to beat you. He might hit only one home run in a game. Then he'll make a diving catch for the third out, robbing two runs from the other team. Then he'll make a perfect relay throw on a ball hit deep to left center, and keep a guy at third from scoring. Yount was magical to watch. He really was. And because he played in Milwaukee, like Clemente before him in Pittsburgh, and even like Aaron when he was in Milwaukee, fewer people saw, or appreciated just how great he was.

howard38 · #12 08-05-2014, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I know that I did briefly mention statistical plateaus that Yount reached, and how it was more impressive that Yount reached them as a shortstop. But the statistical comps I put up immediately afterword weren't meant to exclude Ripken, or anybody else. In fact, they weren't meant to be a comparison to other shortstops at all. They were really put up there to place the entirety of Yount's career numbers into context.

When looking at Yount's career numbers, people often tried to dismiss him by saying he only hit 250 home runs, or only hit .285. They don't take into consideration that Yount only played 64 games in the minor leagues, that he was picked out of high school, sent to the minors for a few months, then inserted into a Major League lineup at 18. He learned how to hit in the Majors. He was never afforded the time most baseball players get to perfect their craft. His career batting average suffers because while most Major League players don't come up to the big leagues now until they're 24 or 25, Yount was a teenager when he got the job. If you look at what Yount did from age 24 on, he was a career .293 hitter. So, as I so often try to do in these types of discussions, I am trying to place Yount's career as a whole into a proper context. What I was attempting to do, Raymond, was simply show that his career metrics, taken together, were more impressive than any of them were alone.

250 home runs alone isn't impressive.
250 home runs and 250 stolen bases is a little more impressive.
250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, and 2,500 hits is more impressive,
250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 2,500 hits, and a 75.00 career WAR is even more impressive.
250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 2,500 career hits, a 75.00 career WAR, and 500 doubles...is even more impressive.

See what I'm trying to get at? There were a lot of players that hit more home runs than Yount. There were also a lot of players that stole more bases than Yount. But how many did all the things that Yount did? He did a lot of things very well. And that, I think more than anything, is the greatest compliment that could be paid to Yount. He could do so many things well. He had really good power, had really good speed. He was a tremendous fielder, he was a great pure hitter. He was a clutch hitter. And he was a leader.

Robin Yount's greatness cannot simply be measured in a few stats. You really had to see him play to truly appreciate just how gifted he was. People often said that Joe DiMaggio made everything look so easy. Well, that's Yount. When you looked at him in the field, he was like Tulowitzki is now. So graceful. The way he broke to the ball. The way he stabbed the ball on a short bounce, the way he set himself while momentum was carrying his body towards third base, and let loose a perfect strike to first base. Everything the guy did was like watching poetry. He did the things that just don't show up in the box score. While baseball, more than any sport, lends itself to statistical analysis, numbers cannot capture the "wow" factor that some players had. One might look at Mickey Mantle's career stats, see his 536 home runs, and think "ok, he was 15th or 16th all-time in home runs." While that is an accurate statement, in a way, it does a disservice to Mantle. A home run that just squeaks over the wall in right field, where the fence is 318 feet, counts the same as a home run that hits the facade of the upper deck at Yankee Stadium. But are they the same hit? Absolutely not. Anybody that was at a Yankees game in the 50s and early 60s will tell you that Mantle could have hit a ball to heaven so God could see the stitches. And while Yankee fans might still worship Mantle in a way, and non Yankee fans, or baseball fans that didn't see him play might roll there eyes, there's a reason he's so revered today, and it's not because he looked like somebody out of central casting in Hollywood. When Mantle hit a home run, he put the fear of God in opposing pitchers.

Yet that doesn't show up in the box score.

Yount was like that in a different way. When he was on, the Brewers were going to win. He was going to do whatever it took to beat you. He might hit only one home run in a game. Then he'll make a diving catch for the third out, robbing two runs from the other team. Then he'll make a perfect relay throw on a ball hit deep to left center, and keep a guy at third from scoring. Yount was magical to watch. He really was. And because he played in Milwaukee, like Clemente before him in Pittsburgh, and even like Aaron when he was in Milwaukee, fewer people saw, or appreciated just how great he was.

Why discount just his batting average from his early years? Without his seasons prior to age 24 he wouldn't have reached any of the benchmarks you listed: 250 HRs, 250 SBs, 2,500 hits or 75 WAR. In either case I don't think anyone here is dismissing him as a great player. If anything, fair or not, he falls on some people's list of top shortstops because he played almost half his career in center field.

npa589 · #13 08-05-2014, 09:57 AM

I think Kurkjian is the best SS!

clydepepper · #14 08-10-2014, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by npa589

I think Kurkjian is the best SS!

Nate-

Just to be clear, Kurkjian is a Hobbitt, not a shortstop.

Tabe · #15 08-04-2014, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I've been watching baseball for a really long time. I've seen a lot of incredible players in my life. But I will go to my grave, God willing many years from now, swearing that Robin Yount was the best baseball player I've ever seen. The kid could do it all. He was a Major League shortstop at 18 years old long before everybody was hyping Bryce Harper up for being a Major Leaguer so young.

He is the only player in Major League history to win an MVP as a shortstop and a center fielder. Only Yount, Stan Musial, Hank Greenberg and Alex Rodriguez have ever won MVPs at two different positions. Greenberg and Musial both won as outfielders and first basemen, Rodriguez won as a shortstop and third baseman.

He is the only player in World Series history to have four hits in a game twice, and he did that in the same series. In the '82 World Series he hit .414 with a 1.087 OPS. And Robin Yount is really the reason the Brewers went to the post season at all in 1982. With the Brewers and Orioles tied atop the American League Eastern Division on the last day of the regular season, Robin Yount single-handedly destroyed the Orioles with his defensive play, and his bat. He had a triple and two home runs in 5 ABs.

Yount's 1,731 hits were the most by any Major League player in the 80s.

When you look at some of his stats, like his home runs, you're not blown away. 251 home runs is good for a Major Leaguer, better for a shortstop. 271 stolen bases is also good. But when you start coming up with lists of stats, and Yount's name is one of only a few names, you see how great he was.

Like the list of Major League players with 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 500 doubles and 100 triples in their career:
Willie Mays
Robin Yount. That's it.

Major Leaguers with 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 3,000 hits and 500 doubles:
Willie Mays
Robin Yount
Rickie Henderson
Craig Biggio
Derek Jeter

How about players with career WAR 75.00 or higher, 2,500 hits, 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases:
Barry Bonds
Alex Rodriguez
Willie Mays
Joe Morgan
Rickey Henderson
Robin Yount

When you take his career in the aggregate, you really start to see how great Yount was.

Notice that Jeter was on one of these lists? Ripken isn't on any. Nor is Ernie Banks. I'd say Wagner, too, but he played in the dead ball era. But let's exclude home runs.

Players with a career WAR 75.00 or higher, with 2,500 hits, 250 stolen bases and 750 extra base hits:
Barry Bonds
Willie Mays
Ty Cobb
Tris Speaker
Alex Rodriguez
Honus Wagner
Rickey Henderson
Joe Morgan
Robin Yount
Paul Molitor

When you're on a list of only ten players in Major League history to have done something, and Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker and Honus Wagner are three of those ten, you've had a great career.

Using 250 steals as an arbitrary cutoff to boost the profile of Yount is kinda weak. Drop the number to 240 and Hank Aaron gets included, for example. Barring that, do we seriously believe that Yount belongs in any discussion that includes Mays, Musial, Aaron, Cobb, etc? C'mon.

And the reason Yount has only one Gold Glove? His name is Alan Trammell.

the 'stache · #16 08-05-2014, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

Using 250 steals as an arbitrary cutoff to boost the profile of Yount is kinda weak. Drop the number to 240 and Hank Aaron gets included, for example. Barring that, do we seriously believe that Yount belongs in any discussion that includes Mays, Musial, Aaron, Cobb, etc? C'mon.

And the reason Yount has only one Gold Glove? His name is Alan Trammell.

Regarding the steals comment, yes, Aaron makes that list if the benchmark is set to 250. If you lower the standards on any list, more players will always be included. That's what happens. I could have raised the list to 300 HR and SB, and Yount wouldn't have been included. But 250 is not some arbitrary number.

And as far as the other comment is concerned, you are entitled to your opinion. I say when his numbers put him in the discussion, yes, he belongs. He wasn't on the level of Mays or Aaron when it comes to power, or Musial or Cobb when it comes to pure hitting. But he's in the discussion because he did so many things well while playing two premium positions.

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