The "auction" (for lack of a better word) is over. Look at what happened.

[steve B]

A bunch of responses, in no particular order.

As far as the discussion about shilling and where the line must be drawn, I can see some merits to both arguments. My wife and I disagree similarly about a few issues- we agree at the core things are not what they should be, I tend to be more vocal about complaining, while she'll let stuff slide.

So.
Shilling is wrong.
Shilling is a crime.
Shilling happens - probably a lot more than we'd all like to think.

Sometimes it's allowed to happen, either by design or by circumstances.

But.
"We" are often very quick to see shilling everywhere (Perhaps correctly)
I've had instances where I believed shilling was going on, but was later proven wrong. (Happily so, I got a second chance offer on a cycling jersey I thought was unique, passed, then later won the second one which happened to be nicer from the same seller. )


I used to think policing thousands of auctions for odd patterns and bidders with a lot of retractions was an expensive and difficult task. Then someone here wrote a tiny bit of software and found a number of odd patterns in minutes. So it's not an impossible task for shills or simply odd patterns that happen early.
I'm not so sure about the same events if they're within the last few minutes. Ebay probably doesn't allow automated refusal of bids in any way. If they do, someone write that app, and get it out there!

For those who don't see the problem or don't believe it has possibly altered the prices of all cards.

I believe it has. And here's why.

Lets say that only fairly expensive cards get shilled (Don't get on this, it's a false over simplification)
So maybe a card that's in high grade becomes worth shilling. And they sell fairly often in auctions. Maybe its a $500 card. But in an auction it gets shilled to 750, That becomes the new value for a similar copy. After a few have sold at 750, maybe a bit higher since it's "on its way up" 750 really becomes the value. And maybe the shillers reach a bit farther. ..........eventually it becomes a $1500 card. And because it's valuable, the price of the lesser condition copies go up as well. Many people assign value to lower condition examples based on what the better examples are worth. say the 1500 card is EX. but I figure a VG might be worth 50%.
The shilling of the EX card has essentially cost anyone buying a VG version an extra $250.

Even without shilling - say I have a friend of mine actually buy the card. Or, we get together and buy as many VG cards as we can for 350 when they're going for 250. Then we shill or simply buy and sell the same EX card a few times to establish a higher market price. And make claims that all of that card are going up -way up since it's had huge increases. Then we sell off the VG cards at 500, making a tidy profit.

That's exactly why the stock market has rules against people actively dealing in stocks they promote, and against certain buying and selling patterns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump_and_dump

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_running

Some similar things don't always work out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunt_brothers

If you take the market for cards and other collectibles as a commodity market, which is part of the point of grading. All of that applies.

Whether someone takes the high road of abandoning any market or seller that encourages or condones that stuff
Or The middle road of only participating in some auctions.
Or Ignores it all and only bids what they think is fair

Is up to them.
And I guess that will have to be ok, fraud has been an always will be with us.

I'd like to think that those ignoring it at least do so knowing that even without active participation the cost of their collectibles might be artificially inflated beyond what would be normal.

Steve B

[T206Collector]

The concern of a market artificially inflated by shilling is a red herring, in my view. It is an argument used solely to respond to the shilling-indifferent in an effort to point out a tangible cost of shilling. However, if ebay eliminated all auctions and went solely with a BIN feature, where shilling would be impossible, you would be left with the same potential for market inflation as you have today as a result of false sales of items.

To me it's simple: people hate shilling because they perceive that they overpaid for an item. My response is (1) don't pay more than you want to pay for something, and (2) there is no parallel market where shilling is eliminated and things become cheaper as a result. The elimination of shilling just means higher BINs for everyone.

But, finally, of course it is good to out the auctioneers who engage in shilling. Smart consumers do well to be alert to such pricing fraud. I do not think that being alert to shilling is antithetical to my views on this matter.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

don't pay more than you want to pay for something

And how do you avoid that if you're shilled up?

[ullmandds]

I think the moral of the story is: if you want to collect desirable vintage baseball cards...you should be prepared to OVERPAY for them!

[D.P.Johnson]

Note to self:

Avoid all ebay sellers whose name start with a "P".

Prob.
Pwcc.
Pank.

Perhaps Prob. and Pwcc will merge someday and call themselves "PeePee Auction House"...

[MattyC]

I think what T206 means is this, and I am writing this in the mind of a hypothetical buyer...

1. Here is a card I want.

2. Based on my budget, I'd be happy paying $100 for it.

3. Oh, it's at auction on ebay now? Cool. Let me check the auction real quick to see if any shilling's been going on. No? Okay, I will bid $100 for it, go about my life, and then get an email when the auction ends. I sure wish I could watch this auction like a hawk, but, you know, life.

4. 7 DAYS LATER... Great-- I won it for $100 (or less).

5. Now I will pay, receive the card, and enjoy the card.

6. But wait-- what if I was shilled, and could have paid less? Should I have taken time from my job to monitor the bidders' and their profiles, then have retracted my bid?

And what if that $100 I was okay paying was really subliminally influenced and placed in my mind as an okay price by past shills over the years-- and thus in a parallel universe the card is really worth $88.17?

Maybe I should invent the flux capacitor to go back and pass on that conference call or workout or sex with my wife or fun with my kids to stare at that bidding history. Or maybe I should quit my career and invent a portal to the shill-free dimension. (Just think of what I could charge for entry! I'm gonna be RICH!)

7. Ah, know what, I suck at this whole flux capacitor thing-- I'll just be happy with my card. It gives me such joy, and life presents far more pressing headaches. I do wish I had the time to watch auctions in which I am bidding like a hawk, and walk away anytime I sense the presence of a shill bidder, but that's just not the case. I do think shilling is a criminal, abhorrent practice, and I will definitely tell my collecting colleagues what happened to me, but I certainly am not going to beat myself up or lose sleep over having bid on a card I wanted for my collection. I paid an amount I was okay with paying and am happy with my purchase. THE END.

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I think what T206 means is this, and I am writing this in the mind of a hypothetical buyer...

1. Here is a card I want.

2. Based on my budget, I'd be happy paying $100 for it.

3. Oh, it's at auction on ebay now? Cool. Let me check the auction real quick to see if any shilling's been going on. No? Okay, I will bid $100 for it, go about my life, and then get an email when the auction ends. I sure wish I could watch this auction like a hawk, but, you know, life.

4. 7 DAYS LATER... Great-- I won it for $100 (or less).

5. Now I will pay, receive the card, and enjoy the card.

6. But wait-- what if I was shilled, and could have paid less? Should I have taken time from my job to monitor the bidders' and their profiles, then have retracted my bid?

And what if that $100 I was okay paying was really subliminally influenced and placed in my mind as an okay price by past shills over the years-- and thus in a parallel universe the card is really worth $88.17?

Maybe I should invent the flux capacitor to go back and pass on that conference call or workout or sex with my wife or fun with my kids to stare at that bidding history. Or maybe I should quit my career and invent a portal to the shill-free dimension. (Just think of what I could charge for entry! I'm gonna be RICH!)

7. Ah, know what, I suck at this whole flux capacitor thing-- I'll just be happy with my card. It gives me such joy, and life presents far more pressing headaches. I do wish I had the time to watch auctions in which I am bidding like a hawk, and walk away anytime I sense the presence of a shill bidder, but that's just not the case. I do think shilling is a criminal, abhorrent practice, and I will definitely tell my collecting colleagues what happened to me, but I certainly am not going to beat myself up or lose sleep over having bid on a card I wanted for my collection. I paid an amount I was okay with paying and am happy with my purchase. THE END.

Very well said ......

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I think what T206 means is this

Correct, with one additional point: we make purchasing and selling decisions with imperfect information about market value all of the time. I just do not view the potential impact of shilling in an auction as all that different from my other daily fixed price transactions.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I think what T206 means is this, and I am writing this in the mind of a hypothetical buyer...

1. Here is a card I want.

2. Based on my budget, I'd be happy paying $100 for it.

3. Oh, it's at auction on ebay now? Cool. Let me check the auction real quick to see if any shilling's been going on. No? Okay, I will bid $100 for it, go about my life, and then get an email when the auction ends. I sure wish I could watch this auction like a hawk, but, you know, life.

4. 7 DAYS LATER... Great-- I won it for $100 (or less).

5. Now I will pay, receive the card, and enjoy the card.

6. But wait-- what if I was shilled, and could have paid less? Should I have taken time from my job to monitor the bidders' and their profiles, then have retracted my bid?

And what if that $100 I was okay paying was really subliminally influenced and placed in my mind as an okay price by past shills over the years-- and thus in a parallel universe the card is really worth $88.17?

Maybe I should invent the flux capacitor to go back and pass on that conference call or workout or sex with my wife or fun with my kids to stare at that bidding history. Or maybe I should quit my career and invent a portal to the shill-free dimension. (Just think of what I could charge for entry! I'm gonna be RICH!)

7. Ah, know what, I suck at this whole flux capacitor thing-- I'll just be happy with my card. It gives me such joy, and life presents far more pressing headaches. I do wish I had the time to watch auctions in which I am bidding like a hawk, and walk away anytime I sense the presence of a shill bidder, but that's just not the case. I do think shilling is a criminal, abhorrent practice, and I will definitely tell my collecting colleagues what happened to me, but I certainly am not going to beat myself up or lose sleep over having bid on a card I wanted for my collection. I paid an amount I was okay with paying and am happy with my purchase. THE END.

Matt, not a bad effort, but replace step #3 with: "if the seller is a known shiller, don't bid"

and remove step #6

Regarding step #7, it sounds like this statement: "I certainly am not going to beat myself up or lose sleep over having bid on a card I wanted for my collection" trumps this one: "I do think shilling is a criminal, abhorrent practice"

If you really mean what you say, then you'll simply avoid sellers who you feel are crooked; otherwise, you are rationalizing.

[drcy]

I've consigned on eBay. I consigned because I didn't want to do the work at the time (I hate billing, packaging, packaging tape, gong to the post office, etc--- and it was easier to ship it all at once to one seller) and the particular seller I consigned to was a respected dealer who got good prices due to his reputation and known knowledge (He used to work at a museum). Realize that I've never sold trading cards printed in the thousands that come encapsulated in plastic holders with identification label and bar code at top and that can be double checked on the PSA website and looked up in a price guide. I've consigned esoteric and rare items such as vintage autographed scorecards, unique postcards, antique movie posters, medals, original art and movie star awards, where buyers bid more when the seller is well known, they've had good experience and the seller is known as knowledgeable about what he sells. I thought he did a good job and I got fair prices, so I was willing to consign again.

And, whether or not you believe it, I never shilled. To be honest, the idea of shilling never even crossed my mind. Some people think everyone thinks about doing bad things even if they don't act upon it, but that's not true. For many people, that they could cheat or maim that person across the room or slip the tip on the next table into his pocket doesn't even cross their minds. It doesn't enter their thoughts. It's unethical people who think everyone is also unethical. The prices I got were the prices I got. Some stuff lots sold less than I wanted, but overall I was satisfied.

I also admit I can be lazy-- after all, I said I consigned in part to pass the work onto someone else. The point of consigning was not to give myself more work-- say, the work of setting up phony accounts, spending hours bidding, retracting bids and and following auctions. The point was I could be napping on the couch or sipping a Diet Coke in front of Gilligan's Island while work was being done.

And I admit I'm self centered enough to think I have more important things to do than wrapping packaging tape around boxes in my basement. We polymath supergeniuses think our time better spent solving the mysteries of the universe, writing the Great American Novel (the real one, not that hack Faulkner) and reinventing the wheel (I want something rounder).

"I didn't realize polymath supergeniuses watched Giligan's Island."
"Well now you know."
"And exactly how many polymath supergeniuses are there?"
"I heard there's another one in Estonia, but it's so far unconfirmed."

Reminds me of when someone asked Doctor Who what he was a doctor of, and he said "Most everything."

Or the HAL 9000-inpsired ship's computer on the classic BBC science fiction sit com Red Dwarf that said "My name is Holly and I have an iq of 6,000. That's the equivalent of 6,000 PE teachers." In another episode he said it was the equivalent of 6,000 car park attendants.

[MattyC]

Scott,

Actually, I do avoid auctions that I think are crooked. However I make this assessment on an auction by auction basis; I do not personally subscribe to the belief that the big ebay consignment sellers like Brent are doing the shilling. I think the owners of the cards are doing the shilling. That's my opinion alone. Now what the sellers can do to combat it, and whether or not they are doing enough, that's a whole different discussion.

Now as to the inference you are drawing, that the statement about not beating oneself up trumps the statement about shilling being abhorrent, that is how you are choosing to read into what I wrote. The two statements, for me, are in perfect balance. I can think shilling is criminal activity, call it out and avoid it when I see it-- and at the same time I can refuse to lose sleep over it, refuse to obsess over it, and refuse to scour the bidding activity of every auction like some hypothetical power nerd. For me, it's about balance-- being aware and proactive without crossing over into obsessive crusading that ruins hobby enjoyment.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

And how do you avoid that if you're shilled up?

The same way I avoid it when I buy something at a fixed price.

[VoodooChild]

MattyC - that's the best post I've read here since I joined. I 100% agree except for the sex with the wife part - unless the auction is taking place on one of the four nights a year where that actually happens !!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

The same way I avoid it when I buy something at a fixed price.

So the only way to avoid shilling is to buy fixed price items?

Skip regular auctions?

[T206Collector]

Me: Don't pay more than you want to pay for something.

DJ: And how do you avoid that if you're shilled up?

Me: The same way I avoid it when I buy something at a fixed price.

DJ: So the only way to avoid shilling is to buy fixed price items? Skip regular auctions?

Me: No. What I mean is that when I buy something at a fixed price I am often all too keenly aware that I may be overpaying for the item. But, I still buy things with price tags all of the time. Obviously buying items at a fixed price does not mean you bought something at the lowest possible price.

[T206Collector]

Frank La Porte

$139.99 + $2 s/h for this T206 Frank LaPorte PSA 5 as a BIN:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-FRANK-L...item3ce0e236f4

History of the sales of this card suggest the buyer grossly overpaid:

http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/gm...716722&grade=5

But, was the buyer an idiot or a fool? Is $139.99 a relevant price point for this card in the future? How can we confirm that this was an arm's length transaction between two consenting and rational adults? What if every seller tried to shill up to a price below this one going forward - would it manipulate the market?

[drcy]

For the record and in response to previous comment on my post, I specifically said bidding with an auctioneer where you know (are consciously and keenly aware) he is using unethical and possibly illegal practice(s) to covertly cheat customers out of their money. I didn't say anything about where you are ignorant to the practice(s).

And, yes, I do think it is a problem with this hobby that collectors continue to give money to auction houses they know cheat and break the law. These collectors supply the money that keeps the auction houses in business. As soon as the well of money goes dry in protest or response to the practices, the auction houses will either go out of business or change their practices.

Do I have a practical, real world solution to the previous paragraph? No. I am aware that many collectors follow the stuff and I never claimed to know how to heard cats. If a seller has a card a collector 'needs,' the seller has the card the collector 'needs.' . . . I put needs in quotes, because people don't really need a card. They just really, really want it. "The heart wants what the heart wants," as an old girlfriend once said.

[chernieto]

[QUOTE=drcy;1273249]For the record and in response to previous comment on my post, I specifically said bidding with an auctioneer where you know (are consciously and keenly aware) he is using unethical and possibly illegal practice(s) to covertly cheat customers out of their money. I didn't say anything about where you are ignorant to the practice(s).

And, yes, I do think it is a problem with this hobby that collectors continue to give money to auction houses they know cheat and break the law. These collectors supply the money that keeps the auction houses in business. As soon as the well of money goes dry in protest or response to the practices, the auction houses will either go out of business or change their practices.
__________________________________________________ ________

Once a bid is placed in any auction house it would seem all bidders are ignorant to who places additional higher bids or if the auction house just illegally pushes price up to a pre-existing max bid.
If you are aware of any auction house that "cheat and break the law" I would love to know about it and would avoid it! To me at least there is a vast difference between someone claiming "all his auctions are shilled" & someone proving that. I believe in the theory of innocent until proven guilty.

[drcy]

My comment on shilling is, if an auctioneer does one thing unethical in order to covertly trick customers out of money, you can safely assume the auctioneer is doing more than one thing unethical. The motive in to secretly trick customers out of money-- why would they stick with just one covert method to achieve that? And customers often can only guess what the other unethical things might be. Remember that Mastro wasn't sent to prison for just shilling-- the charges were for shilling, altering and misrepresenting items at sale. Perhaps other things. He had a variety of methods to cheat bidders out of money.

This is why I say that collectors are fools when they participate in auctions where they know unethical (and in the case of shilling, possibly illegal) practices are going on. The bidders have don't know what other ways they may be being scammed? Are items altered? Is essential information omitted from descriptions? Does the auctioneer handle material from consignors he knows are unethical or alterers? Do know who are the consignors?

And, ask yourself, how sellable will your collection be 15 years from now, when potential buyers learn you bought 60% of it from an auctioneer who served time in prison for massive shilling fraud? And, even worse, what will these customers think when they learn that you knew about and defended on a chatboard the auctioneer's illegal practices while they were happening? What will this say to them about your ethics and your reliability as a seller? When I read the game used universe board, I read posts from people who are suspicious of items that come with a Mastro LOA-- even though the items may be (and perhaps probably are) legitimate. Though I think his knee jerk reaction was incorrect, one poster said he just assumed a game used item was altered because it came from a Mastro Auction.

In summary, if you participate in auctions where you know unethical (and even potentially illegal) things are going on, you are not only part of the problem, you are a fool. And don't come running back to this board when a seller you knew all along was willing to break the law to cheat customers out of money sold you a card that was intentionally misdescribed or known to be altered or cheated you out of shipping or deceptively manipulated scans. I might just have to say something sarcastic such as "Wow. Who would've thunk an unethical seller would do something unethical."

And sometime have a conversation with someone outside of collecting and see what they think of your brain capacity and grasp of common sense:

YOU: "I'll tell you, there are honest and dishonest sellers out there. There are some sellers you can trust with every word they say and there are some sellers who would sell his own grandmother to the Gypsies for five bucks. I've identified two sellers in particular on eBay who are total cheats and scammers, who literally break the law to cheat customers out of money. God knows what else they are doing."
HOBBY OUTSIDER: "So, naturally, you stay far away from those scammers."
YOU: "I don't get what you mean. Those are the auctions where I bid. That's where I get most of my stuff."
HOBBY OUTSIDER: "Uhhh. Maybe I missed something. Repeat everything you've said, but say it more slowly this time."
YOU: "Sorry, I forget. Understand that I was dropped on my head as kid."
HOBBY OUTSIDER: "That's what I kind of thinking. I noticed the dent on the side of your head, but wasn't going to say anything."

P.s. I don't follow eBay much, much less follow bid pattern charsm and am not accusing any current eBay seller of anything. I don't have enough knowledge to even comment on individual sellers And I'm also not a lawyer, and my legal references where hypotheticals and to prove general points. There are enough lawyers on board to point out when my People's Court education is lacking.

P.s.s, by 'you' I didn't mean you. I'm sure your head has no dents.

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by drcy

In summary, if you participate in auctions where you know unethical (and even potentially illegal) things are going on, you are not only part of the problem, you are a fool. And don't come running back to this board when a seller you knew all along was willing to break the law to cheat customers out of money sold you a card that was intentionally misdescribed or known to be altered or cheated you out of shipping or deceptively manipulated scans. I might just have to say something sarcastic such as "Wow. Who would've thunk an unethical seller would do something unethical."

P.s. I don't follow eBay much, much less follow bid pattern charsm and am not accusing any current eBay seller of anything. I don't have enough knowledge to even comment on individual sellers And I'm also not a lawyer, and my legal references where hypotheticals and to prove general points. There are enough lawyers on board to point out when my People's Court education is lacking.

What if you refuse to participate in an auction because someone on the board once saw something they don't like or for whatever reason calls foul? Does that make you a fool? What if you buy something in what you assume is a normal auction and later find out otherwise? Fool? If egg prices get manipulated do your kids never eat eggs?
99% of the folks here do not approve of illegal or manipulative actions. I think we all can collect how we wish without someone calling us fools, perhaps foolish of me to think so.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

The elimination of shilling just means higher BINs for everyone.

We've discussed this before and this is nothing more than an unprovable assumption. I could similarly argue that the elimination of shilling will produce LOWER BINs (than currently offered), but not necessarily as much as an un-shilled auction. But the elimination of shilling doesn't guarantee higher BINs for everyone.

General rule of thumb. The less manipulation of a free market, the lower the price.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by tschock

But the elimination of shilling doesn't guarantee higher BINs for everyone.

If a seller's ability to artificially inflate prices is removed, why would he agree to voluntarily lower his real price? I just don't think that's how it works. If he can't shill a card he bought for $50 to $100, I don't think that'll mean he'll list it for $50. I think the fair assumption is that he'll raise his price as high as possible to get at the same buyer who was willing to pay $100. I don't think it is fair to assume that the seller will now sit on his hands and sell his items at auction with the uncertainty of the market. Frankly, I think the move to BINs of so many ebay sellers over recent years proves as much.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

If a seller's ability to artificially inflate prices is removed, why would he agree to voluntarily lower his real price? I just don't think that's how it works. If he can't shill a card he bought for $50 to $100, I don't think that'll mean he'll list it for $50. I think the fair assumption is that he'll raise his price as high as possible to get at the same buyer who was willing to pay $100. I don't think it is fair to assume that the seller will now sit on his hands and sell his items at auction with the uncertainty of the market. Frankly, I think the move to BINs of so many ebay sellers over recent years proves as much.

So what you are saying above is that a guy buys a card shilled from $50 to $100. And that same card won't be sold at a $50 BIN but a $100 BIN? So how is $100 more than $100???

The move to BINs could also be due to the artificially high prices from shilled auctions as well, couldn't it? Hmmmm... That might explain the ton of "museum pieces" that keep getting the same BINs over and over. Might also explain ebay's recent announcement to at least get a token 30 cents for the museum pieces or cough up a store subscription. Perhaps ebay DOES know more than us about how well BINs are working or not. If your theory (on the move to BINs) was correct, I think ebay would have moved in the other direction and made BINs free for the first 100 (rather than auctions).

[tschock]

Originally Posted by tschock

We've discussed this before and this is nothing more than an unprovable assumption. I could similarly argue that the elimination of shilling will produce LOWER BINs (than currently offered), but not necessarily as much as an un-shilled auction. But the elimination of shilling doesn't guarantee higher BINs for everyone.

General rule of thumb. The less manipulation of a free market, the lower the price.

That said, I will generally put a bid out on what I am willing to pay for the item, but I always factor in the source of that item as well. As someone pointed out, a seller that turns a blind eye to shilling is likely to turn a blind eye to other sketchy things, if not actively participate in them. So that particular seller would also have a negative factor in my bid. Either making it lower, much lower, or not at all.