Spalding, Reach and other cut outs sold on our BST

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

Tom,

I heartily agree with you in terms of cutting up a perfectly good collectible, but I have a lot of experience in working with books and magazines for a local organization.

Some older paper items are already basically "cut up" condition, missing bindings, pages, basically worthless as a "whole" collectible. However many have interesting pictures and ads in them that I think should be saved.

Would you consider culling pictures and such from those types of items OK?

I have no problem with selling pages or pictures from a book that is basically destroyed already except that it may promote others to do the same with perfectly good collectibles. I do think these objects should not be graded. If PSA is now grading this stuff, then I am done with PSA.

[ethicsprof]

I have to admit that I cringe when I see these Reach and Spalding cut-outs for
sale. I even find myself hoping as I click on sections of the BST that there
won't be any on there. Many years ago on the forum we would sometimes
talk a bit about these pieces being the worst things around in our hobby---
capturing the newbie again and again. In fact,they were perceived as an
embarrassment to the hobby. I know that through the years, we have seen
a few other 'worst things in the hobby' but I still cringe and find myself avoiding the BST more than I'd like since these items have come on board. I often say 'to each his own'. But not this time.
I'm with Brian M and Scott F on this one---unequivocally.
best,
barry

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by ethicsprof

I have to admit that I cringe when I see these Reach and Spalding cut-outs for
sale. I even find myself hoping as I click on sections of the BST that there
won't be any on there. Many years ago on the forum we would sometimes
talk a bit about these pieces being the worst things around in our hobby---
capturing the newbie again and again. In fact,they were perceived as an
embarrassment to the hobby. I know that through the years, we have seen
a few other 'worst things in the hobby' but I still cringe and find myself avoiding the BST more than I'd like since these items have come on board. I often say 'to each his own'. But not this time.
I'm with Brian M and Scott F on this one---unequivocally.
best,
barry

Barry, one way that the BST cut-outs has helped me, is that now I know which books need to have their prices raised to a level that would make cutting them up prohibitive. If I end up sitting on them forever, sobeit.

[thecatspajamas]

I absolutely HATE the way these "cut-outs" are being produced and marketed as standalone collectibles. I'm sick of them coming up in my eBay searches, and I am disgusted by the wanton destruction a few individuals are wrecking on these old guides.

If you could guarantee that every one of these things came from a guide that was already falling apart and incomplete, I might feel differently, but that's not the case. To a man, if you ask the regular sellers of these things why they are carving up 100-year-old books, they will tell you they were already damaged, coming apart, etc. But you can look at their buying history, and clearly see that is not the case. Allowing and encouraging the selling of these individual pages is tantamount to allowing and encouraging the destruction of the guides. If a few sales of pages that legitimately fell out of a deteriorating guide are blocked, that is a small price to pay in my opinion.

Heaven help the Reach and Spalding guides if any of the major TPG's start grading these things. We'll have knuckleheads with exacto knives falling over each other to see who can cut the straightest line, and these guides will go the way of the dodo.

[Runscott]

Lance, can I print out your post above, and include it as an insert with each Guide I sell?

That was great - thanks.

[ethicsprof]

I have long been drawn to this hobby because of its uncanny ability to
rejuvenate my memories of baseball at its best---whether it be the perfect crystalline focus of the Big Train or the exquisite languor of the methodical,
mechanical Gehringer. Somehow, this great hobby allows me to retouch the
playing days of my own youth, much like the tea-dunked madeleines of old:
"No sooner had the warm liquid mixed with the crumbs touched my palate
that a shiver ran through me."(RoTPast)
I always choose a shiver over a cringe, viz. the artifacts and hagiographa
over the defaced.

all the best,
barry

[barrysloate]

While I'm ranting, let me add that I also hate the fact that these silly things are being slabbed. Shame on TPG (I know, they have no shame) for agreeing to slab them. All that does is encourage more people to tear up more books. Everyone knows that when you slab something it sells for far more than when it's raw. We may not like it, and it may not make much sense, but that's the truth about it. TPG's should JUST SAY NO. These are just worthless pages from a book and there is no reason to turn them into instant collectibles.

[sbfinley]

I don't see the difference between owning an individual guide page and owning a rare signature cut from a larger piece or album page. The history of the item is no more being destroyed as it is being altered for another purpose. Either way, as long as the recipient of the item is pleased with and enjoys it I don't see the issue or how it hurts the hobby.

For example I own this and other pages like it:






I picked it up here on the B/S/T a few years ago. It's on a shelf next to my desk. I appreciate the history of this team and wanted something to display that depicted it and that was from the period. I'm also a father in college with a mortgage and wife with a credit card so I'm realistic and sensible with my purchases. Hell, I'll probably take a pay cut when I enter teaching next year. I'll likely never own anything that graces the first 20 pages of an REA catalog, but I still want to collect the game's entire history. It's still a hundred year old artifact, its still historic, and it is still being appreciated. If someone here has a period cabinet or composite that depicts this team to replace mine for what I paid for this tell me where to send the check.

[Runscott]

Steve, if you could afford to buy that page from a book, you could afford to buy the entire book. You could then make a hi-res scan of the photo, put it behind glass, and it would be as aesthetically-pleasing (actually, moreso) as the real cut-out page is in a slab. Having the book nearby should satisfy your need to have a piece of history, but if the copy would suffice, you could then sell the book and use the money to help pay your mortgage.

[Jeffrompa]

I voted no but it made me think about chopping my Benz .

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

I have no problem with selling pages or pictures from a book that is basically destroyed already except that it may promote others to do the same with perfectly good collectibles.

And that is exactly what is happening, with the perpetrators claiming that they only buy destroyed books. There was a guy on ebay who was making this same claim, but we were able to tie his i.d. back to purchases of good reading copies of Reach and Spalding Guides.

This is really formulaic: is the selling price of the sum total of individual photos that can be cut out of a book greater than what the book costs? If so, people who don't really respect these items as historical pieces are going to buy them and then cut them up and sell the pieces.

To me it's similar to cutting up bats, jerseys or anything else of historical value, in order to cash in on its pieces - it then just becomes a matter of personal aesthetics. I'm sure there are those on this board who thinks a game-used bat card of Babe Ruth is a horror, but that a page out of a Reach Guide is a beautiful collectible. Or who don't care about the bat-piece card but think it's terrible that the bat was destroyed, but who could care less about a book being destroyed. I like bats, you like books - just a matter of taste.

[barrysloate]

While there is nothing illegal or even unethical in selling these cutouts, I voted "no" simply because I hate the fact that people destroy hundred year old artifacts just to line their pockets. I find that detestable.