Spalding, Reach and other cut outs sold on our BST

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

I voted yes as long as they are described as a cut out. I have bought and sold cutouts from reach and spalding guides and love the ones I own. Some of the images are really nice and they are original baseball memorabilia from those dates.

IMO having a 1915 cutout of ruth on his minor league team, or having a joe Jackson savannah team cut out, and so on are nice pieces to have.

I DO NOT think they should be graded, to me that makes no sense at all. The few I seen graded I stay away from just on principle.

Also I have seen a few ruth flip book pages that were singles graded, lol crazy what some of these Xbrand grading companies grade.

No, they are not original baseball memorabilia - they are pieces of original baseball memorabilia. Hopefully you are not cutting pictures out of the other books you own.

[aelefson]

Hi-
I do like how the individual pages display from a guide, but I have never bought one nor will I sell one. I am especially against grading them.
However, I struggle with the display factor regarding old magazines that have nothing relevant to baseball on the cover, but have fascinating pictures inside. I have a flea market dealer who regularly provides me with a pile of old magazines for 1-3.00 each, and each one has a nice baseball article and photos. All are pre 1940, and most that I buy are pre 1920. I have never removed the baseball content, and do not plan to, but storing/displaying the entire publications is much more difficult than if I had pages.
Sometimes, I get completely separated baseball ads and other pages from this dealer. I know he does not separate them, and I know some folks will prefer them that way, and sometimes, I do too. I buy them this way. I feel there is a difference buying like this than the cutouts that started this thread.
Collectors have been cutting up old books at least since the late 1800s. There will always be collectors who prefer the whole, and others who want a piece, whether for display or affordability.
Please note that in regards to the specific pages from old guides selling for any price beyond 5-10.00 is ridiculous in my opinion, unless the item is well matted and framed (like some that were on the BST a few weeks ago).

Alan Elefson

[sporteq]

Apparently there's a market for them and the description looks honest.. Let him sell.

Albert

[MW1]

Absolutely no. Cutouts should not be allowed to be sold either her or on eBay for two compelling reasons:

1. A "cut out" picture is an alteration of the original page it come from. Like an altered sports card, it should not be given a numerical grade, much less encapsulated at all (see below).

2. "Cut outs" are typically produced on thin paper and usually involve rudimentary printing methods. As such, they would be much easier to counterfeit or duplicate than actual sports cards. Allowing these types of items to be sold is like opening Pandora's box. If there's a legitimate demand for such things, collectors would be better off buying the publication and doing the cutting themselves. Sports cards that were produced to be collected and traded are an entirely different entity than paper cut-outs. It's like the difference between a studio portrait and a polaroid.

Edited to add:

I have one other thought on this subject. Many of the cut-outs, particularly those from Spalding and other similar baseball guides, are usually seen in graded holders of some kind. If cut-outs were a legitimate, stand-alone collectible, you would see similar quantities available for sale that were "raw" or ungraded. But you don't. That, to me, is clear evidence that there is an effort on the part of sellers to deceive and that cut-outs themselves, are a contrived collectible.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by MW1

Absolutely no. Cutouts should not be allowed to be sold either her or on eBay for two compelling reasons:

..... Sports cards that were produced to be collected and traded are an entirely different entity than paper cut-outs. It's like the difference between a studio portrait and a polaroid.

Really Mike? There can't be any "tweeners?"

[packs]

I don't think they should be sold here only because they could be misleading. Perhaps not to the initial buyer on the board, but I'm thinking of the next buyer.

eBay is a fine enough venue in my opinion. This board has more of a generally advanced collector community.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by Leon

Really Mike? There can't be any "tweeners?"

Leon,

Please see my additional comment above. Also, I don't view those items as "tweeners." Clearly, they were produced to be collected, clipped, or traded in some fashion. That's why many of them have labels like "baseball cards" or "sports stamps." A cut out picture of Babe Ruth or Joe Jackson from a 1916 Reach Baseball guide is something totally different.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by MW1

Leon,

Please see my additional comment above. Also, I don't view those items as "tweeners." Clearly, they were produced to be collected, clipped, or traded in some fashion. That's why many of them have labels like "baseball cards" or "sports stamps." A cut out picture of Babe Ruth or Joe Jackson from a 1916 Reach Baseball guide is something totally different.

Fair enough, I guess I missed the additional comment. That being said I have a cut out or two in my collection to go with cards or other pieces. They are true cut outs from mags and I like them.

I am mostly, strongly against cutting up "good" vintage anything. I know I have a smaller Pelicans team cut out with Jackson on it and it goes with a larger piece I have. I think I paid about $8 for it. I am happy with it.

The voting is about 2-1 in favor of (including not caring) letting them be sold on the BST with mandatory transparency and in the correct section. So far I haven't been convinced or have reasoning to go against that overwhelming majority.

To those that would say "well, if they are sold here, no worries but what about the next sale?" That is another fair question and my answer is I hope people are honest and transparent. And I don't think by "allowing" them to be sold on the BST we are necessarily asking for the pubs to be cut up. But by allowing their sale I know it is debatable.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by MW1

Absolutely no. Cutouts should not be allowed to be sold either her or on eBay for two compelling reasons:

1. A "cut out" picture is an alteration of the original page it come from. Like an altered sports card, it should not be given a numerical grade, much less encapsulated at all (see below).

2. "Cut outs" are typically produced on thin paper and usually involve rudimentary printing methods. As such, they would be much easier to counterfeit or duplicate than actual sports cards. Allowing these types of items to be sold is like opening Pandora's box. If there's a legitimate demand for such things, collectors would be better off buying the publication and doing the cutting themselves. Sports cards that were produced to be collected and traded are an entirely different entity than paper cut-outs. It's like the difference between a studio portrait and a polaroid.

Edited to add:

I have one other thought on this subject. Many of the cut-outs, particularly those from Spalding and other similar baseball guides, are usually seen in graded holders of some kind. If cut-outs were a legitimate, stand-alone collectible, you would see similar quantities available for sale that were "raw" or ungraded. But you don't. That, to me, is clear evidence that there is an effort on the part of sellers to deceive and that cut-outs themselves, are a contrived collectible.

Someone sells a cut out that is described as a cut out and I buy it as such, is contrived?

[MW1]

Originally Posted by Leon

Someone sells a cut out that is described as a cut out and I buy it as such, is contrived?

If it is graded like a baseball card with a "1 to 10" rating, then yes.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by MW1

If it is graded like a baseball card with a "1 to 10" rating, then yes.

Who brought up all of that? I was just talking about a cut out, not other aspects of the argument. (grading, ethics etc...)

I do see where you mention the grading ....but I wasn't referring to that. I probably didn't communicate that very well.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by Leon

Someone sells a cut out that is described as a cut out and I buy it as such, is contrived?

I would also add that perception is key here. Allowing the sale of cut-outs as a type of sports collectible opens the door to many items being termed legitimate, including pieces cut from pennants, logos cut from jerseys, etc.

If one third of a T202 or one half of a T201 isn't an authentic baseball card by itself, then how can a photo cut from a baseball guide be construed as a stand-alone collectible as legitimate as a baseball card?

I have no issue with ungraded pieces of paper exchanging hands for money, but when you see these same scraps, quite often with unrelated text on their reverses, selling for $50, $100, or even more in holders where a 1 to 10 grade is assigned, you're implicitly telling the customer that they are receiving a sports collectible/card meant to be marketed as such. And the fact that a disclaimer even has to be attached to such an item should tell us something about what is being sold.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by MW1

I would also add that perception is key here. Allowing the sale of cut-outs as a type of sports collectible opens the door to many items being termed legitimate, including pieces cut from pennants, logos cut from jerseys, etc.

If one third of a T202 or one half of a T201 isn't an authentic baseball card by itself, then how can a photo cut from a baseball guide be construed as a stand-alone collectible as legitimate as a baseball card?

I have no issue with ungraded pieces of paper exchanging hands for money, but when you see these same scraps, quite often with unrelated text on their reverses, selling $50, $100, or even more in holders where a 1 to 10 grade is assigned, you're implicitly telling the customer that they are receiving a sports collectible/card meant to be marketed as such. And the fact that a disclaimer even has to be attached to such an item should tell us something about what is being sold.

I am not really an "it opens the door" kind of guy on most things. I feel we should analyze things one at a time on their own merits.

We both agree on the grading of them. I have long argued against giving numeric grades to hand cut cards, especially with no caveat. I agree with you on that. However, as for the disclaimers they are there for a reason and can warn against danger. I like them on flips.

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by Runscott

No, they are not original baseball memorabilia - they are pieces of original baseball memorabilia. Hopefully you are not cutting pictures out of the other books you own.

Lol no i dont cut up books, but i did once buy a spalding book that was a mess, covers missing pages missing and falling out that i did remove the pages that were left. Some i keps some i sold. As far a a book in good shape i have 2 of them and would not cut them up.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

Lol no i dont cut up books, but i did once buy a spalding book that was a mess, covers missing pages missing and falling out that i did remove the pages that were left. Some i keps some i sold. As far a a book in good shape i have 2 of them and would not cut them up.

Thanks Steve - that's good to know. As Dan said, the genie is out of the bottle. I am very glad, though, that Leon got this discussion going - at the risk of upsetting a few people, we've at least gotten all of the relevant points on the table.