Bill Mastro denies widespread fraud in his auctions -- yesterday.

[Peter_Spaeth]

From Hauls of Shame, probably not worth much....

Sources indicate that the government’s biggest target could be authentication giant Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA), the company that graded the Wagner card for Bruce McNall and Wayne Gretzky after they purchased it at Sotheby’s in 1991. The Wagner was the first card ever graded by the company and its founder David Hall.

[Leon]

Even though I have considered Bill a hobby friend, and understand I was shill bid, I didn't have the amount of disrespect towards him which I do now, until I read his statement. That statement accepts no responsibility of his misdeeds. He caused his own problems, no one else. He really needs to accept responsibility for his actions. I find his statement disgusting. There were 2 letters? I can guarantee there will be at least 3 by the end of the day today. Nice work Jeff.

[Peter_Spaeth]

According to the information to which Mastro apparently pleaded guilty, after the Code of Conduct was published in 2007 by Doug, Mastro Auctions "caused restoration work to be done on trading cards sold by Mastro Auctions, and knowingly failed to disclose that restoration work to bidders." I wonder if we will ever know which cards were involved? Likely not.

[Wite3]

Too bad the judge does not have an email address...he would get tons of emails from collectors.

Joshua

[calvindog]

Judge Ronald A. Guzman
219 South Dearborn Street
Chicago, Illinois 60604

The case name is U.S. v. Mastro, 1:12-cr-00567.

[botn]

If victims do not know who they are nor to what degree they were victimized, how much credibility would a letter have?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by botn

If victims do not know who they are nor to what degree they were victimized, how much credibility would a letter have?

You're kidding, right? The man threatened how many people in this hobby? Steadfastly denied shill bidding even while he was ripping off hundreds if not thousands of people? I think there is plenty of credible stuff to tell the judge about Bill Mastro.

[Iron Horse]

Will the actual fact in this case be public at some point?
So, we can all read as to exactly what went on in detail.

[botn]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You're kidding, right? The man threatened how many people in this hobby? Steadfastly denied shill bidding even while he was ripping off hundreds if not thousands of people? I think there is plenty of credible stuff to tell the judge about Bill Mastro.

Actually Jeff, I am not kidding. Apparently you think the rest of us have seen the evidence that you some how got to see. How can anyone write a letter as a victim if they do not know they are a victim? Maybe you are simply suggesting everyone should do their civic duty by writing letters to judges who are about to sentence people who have been convicted of or admitted to committing felonies

Please tell me how Mastro bidders are supposed to know Bill threatened people and the details of those threats? All I know about Bill is that he ran an auction house, he was a collector, he has now admitted to trimming the T206 which is in a PSA 8 holder and has admitted to shill bidding.

Does Guzman really need to hear from outsiders to tell him to put the bad guys away?

[autograf]

Yeah.....bid on hundreds of items over the years and don't doubt that SOMETHING happened. Just wondering how we know what particular item and how much the shilling was. Kind of difficult to write a nebulous letter assuming you were shilled. Doesn't sound good for the other plaintiffs given Mastro's statements. Assuming he will tell all to minimize his 2-1/2 years if possible. As for altered items, I remember a thread about a cabinet card that Jay Miller consigned that had had substantial work done on it that we discussed. Not sure it was disclosed till we discussed it.

Threatening is a far different offense than shill bidding. Not better or worse but a little more obvious than being bumped $100 on a $1000 card unnecessarily.......

[oldjudge]

Jeff--if we have a specific item in mind that we think could have been shilled, can we get a yea or nay from someone?

[wheitman]

I wanted to clarify a couple of things I read here. I was not present when Bill Hughes took part in grading the trimmed Wagner for PSA. However, Bill Hughes came to my home both before and after he had graded the card. Shelly was present both times. Before the card was graded, I told Bill that the card had been trimmed and should not be graded. Later, after he informed me that the card had been graded, I asked Bill how a trimmed card could be graded. He told me that the measurements of the card were within the acceptable tolerances. I informed him that the skinnier T206s were all American Beauty backs. His response to me was "well, we had to grade it."

I was present when Shelly called McNall's office. He made the call from my home phone and I was the person who had bet him on whether he would call or not.

I've always wondered why no one has explored the McNall/Hall connection when it came to grading this card in the first place. Bruce McNall had made his "fortune" dealing in rare ancient coins and, of course, David Hall was a long time dealer in coins who founded PCGS for the grading of coins. Incidentally, Bill Hughes told me that his grandparents had acquired loads of coins in their pawn shop and had dealt with David Hall quite often, which is why and how Bill became connected to David Hall and his new company, PSA.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Originally Posted by wheitman

I wanted to clarify a couple of things I read here. I was not present when Bill Hughes took part in grading the trimmed Wagner for PSA. However, Bill Hughes came to my home both before and after he had graded the card. Shelly was present both times. Before the card was graded, I told Bill that the card had been trimmed and should not be graded. Later, after he informed me that the card had been graded, I asked Bill how a trimmed card could be graded. He told me that the measurements of the card were within the acceptable tolerances. I informed him that the skinnier T206s were all American Beauty backs. His response to me was "well, we had to grade it."

I was present when Shelly called McNall's office. He made the call from my home phone and I was the person who had bet him on whether he would call or not.

I've always wondered why no one has explored the McNall/Hall connection when it came to grading this card in the first place. Bruce McNall had made his "fortune" dealing in rare ancient coins and, of course, David Hall was a long time dealer in coins who founded PCGS for the grading of coins. Incidentally, Bill Hughes told me that his grandparents had acquired loads of coins in their pawn shop and had dealt with David Hall quite often, which is why and how Bill became connected to David Hall and his new company, PSA.

No disrespect, but who are you? And are you saying Shelly was with you and not present when the card was graded?

[wheitman]

My apologies. I am the Bill Heitman referred to in Shelly's post. I don't know where Shelly was at the time the card was graded, but I know he was at my home during the two conversations I mentioned with Bill Hughes.

Oh--I am also the author of "T206 The Monster" which is where everyone got the name "The Monster" for the T206 set. That was more than 33 years ago, a time when I was the only collector in America who collected T206 by the backs and series'.

Sorry I didn't introduce myself.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

No disrespect, but who are you? And are you saying Shelly was with you and not present when the card was graded?

David really? Like a little mustard with your foot sandwich?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie

No disrespect, but who are you? And are you saying Shelly was with you and not present when the card was graded?

At least you weren't responding to 'Archive'.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by wheitman

I wanted to clarify a couple of things I read here. I was not present when Bill Hughes took part in grading the trimmed Wagner for PSA. However, Bill Hughes came to my home both before and after he had graded the card. Shelly was present both times. Before the card was graded, I told Bill that the card had been trimmed and should not be graded. Later, after he informed me that the card had been graded, I asked Bill how a trimmed card could be graded. He told me that the measurements of the card were within the acceptable tolerances. I informed him that the skinnier T206s were all American Beauty backs. His response to me was "well, we had to grade it."

I was present when Shelly called McNall's office. He made the call from my home phone and I was the person who had bet him on whether he would call or not.

I've always wondered why no one has explored the McNall/Hall connection when it came to grading this card in the first place. Bruce McNall had made his "fortune" dealing in rare ancient coins and, of course, David Hall was a long time dealer in coins who founded PCGS for the grading of coins. Incidentally, Bill Hughes told me that his grandparents had acquired loads of coins in their pawn shop and had dealt with David Hall quite often, which is why and how Bill became connected to David Hall and his new company, PSA.

Thanks for posting this and welcome aboard. If this is true, then I find PSA's actions extremely disturbing to say the least and the "rendering an opinion" defense seems very feeble at this point.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Thanks for posting this and welcome aboard. If this is true, then I find PSA's actions extremely disturbing to say the least and the "rendering an opinion" defense seems very feeble at this point.

I'm sure Doug Allen is dry cleaning his proffer suit in an effort to unload on PSA in order to save himself. Just a hunch.

[cincyredlegs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

From Hauls of Shame, probably not worth much....

Sources indicate that the government’s biggest target could be authentication giant Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA), the company that graded the Wagner card for Bruce McNall and Wayne Gretzky after they purchased it at Sotheby’s in 1991. The Wagner was the first card ever graded by the company and its founder David Hall.

Maybe it is pure coincidence, but I wonder if this is why Don Spence is retiring his sets and selling?

Mark

[sports-rings]

be aware that Mastro was not the only prominent auction house employing such slimy measures.

Maybe some do, but let's not lump them all together.

During SCP Auctions famous Dr. J Auction where rings and other items sold for historic highs, I bid on some of his trophies, and against my better judgement, entered maximum bids and went to sleep.

The next day, after the auction had ended, much to my amazement, I had won some awards and trophies at my last bid, and nowhere near my max bids.

Somehow the auction Gods helped me, and the crazy prices realized for Dr. J's rings and other items did not include the items I won.

[drcy]

My idle observation is that some people on Net54 don't have or use common sense (wishful thinking?), and/or fear being sued themselves by posting their true thoughts and insights on a public chatboard.

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by drcy

My idle observation is that some people on Net54 don't have or use common sense (wishful thinking?), and/or fear being sued themselves by posting their true thoughts and insights on a public chatboard.

That may be true for some posters, but I'm positive it's not true for others. It's difficult to kick Bill Mastro and others when they're down when you have no idea whether they defrauded you. Plus, you have only 5 years from the time to file a suit or you're out of luck.

This hobby is drenched with fraudsters, but I won't give up on collecting. Screw them for their awful behavior. I'll outlast them.

Bill

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by bcornell

It's difficult to kick Bill Mastro and others when they're down when you have no idea whether they defrauded you.

Bill, prices have been inflated going forward for every shilled item in a Mastro auction as falsely high values are assigned to these cards. Even if somehow you bid in a Mastro auction and did not get shilled by Bill and the gang, you still felt the bite of their fraud down the road. In addition, the falsely high prices Mastro got in his auctions surely caused other auction houses to shill bid as well or allow consignors to run wild on their lots in an effort to keep up with the high prices and maintain or get new consignors.

[Iron Horse]

How do we know that this is not going on today?? We see it on ebay with bidders that have numerous bid retractions, and i am sure it is happening in other auctions as well.
Guess the big question is how do we assure that the consumer/bidder is protected in these auctions??
Should there be an independent council that monitors the big auctions?
Should the duration of bidding be shortened to 2-3 days max not 5 weeks?

Looking forward to other suggestions??
Maybe some auction houses can even suggest how do we make sure that our bids are not being shilled.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Bill, prices have been inflated going forward for every shilled item in a Mastro auction as falsely high values are assigned to these cards. Even if somehow you bid in a Mastro auction and did not get shilled by Bill and the gang, you still felt the bite of their fraud down the road. In addition, the falsely high prices Mastro got in his auctions surely caused other auction houses to shill bid as well or allow consignors to run wild on their lots in an effort to keep up with the high prices and maintain or get new consignors.

Big +1

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by cincyredlegs

Maybe it is pure coincidence, but I wonder if this is why Don Spence is retiring his sets and selling?

Mark

If you don't mind me asking, where was it announced that he was retiring and selling his sets?

[cincyredlegs]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

If you don't mind me asking, where was it announced that he was retiring and selling his sets?

Here is the thread that talks about it on the CU Forum.

http://forums.collectors.com/message...eyword1=spence

[drcy]

That the Wagner was rumored/alleged/accused of being trimmed was the about worst kept secret in the hobby for years. It ranked up there with 'ESPN chatboard talk Barry Bonds might have used PEDs.' It was openly talked about, even joked about, on this board and even the PSA board. Keith O. made snide remarks. To now say that this hobby bigwig or that hobby bigwig didn't know about these allegations is silly. That's why I posted my 'lack of common sense post.' If a 17 year old collector in small town Oklahoma heard stories the card was trimmed, it's hard to believe an industry insider was ignorant of the stories. Or, some might suggest, that they buyers didn't know.

The card was, at least for some, a commodity. Like hog bellies. If it brought a return, it brought a return.

PSA exists today as service for resellers and investors. That's what they are, that's how the describe themselves. They overtly advertise the financial benefits of getting your collectibles holdered by them. Average Joe eBay sellers on the CU board ponder aloud if it's worth their financial/resale investment to get such and such card graded-- or perhaps that issue is better to be graded by Beckett.

If you asked me what is the #1 thing I dislike about the art and collectibles industry, it's easy for me to answer: This money stuff. I'm no socialist, I understand collectibles have financial value, I've resold collectibles, if someone wants $10,000 for his baseball bat that's fine by me, if an auction house wants a 15% profit return in the next year I understand that. But turning the hobby into Money magazine, NYSE, investing clubs, is an entire turnoff. It's Donald Trump tacky. It's QVC. It's bad ESPN programming. There's a reason I don't own a television.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by drcy

There's a reason I don't own a television.

That is what makes you a socialist in my book!

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Deertick

That is what makes you a socialist in my book!

Just for the record, I watched a 1930s Laurel and Hardy comedy on my laptop last night.

My vote for best/favorite Laurel and Hardy short (sitcom length) is 1931's 'Chickens Come Home.' Hardy is a married big cty politician and businessman running for mayor, when his past, in the form of an old gold digging girlfriend, enters his office. Blackmail, high society chaos and even gunfire follows. Co-stars vintage comic greats James Finlayson (butler), Thelma Todd (Hardy's blonde wife) and Mae Bush (the brunette femme fatale-- below). Available for free on youtube.