Got burnt today

[drc]

Their disclaimer might actually make it worse for them legally, as it can be read as their acknowledgment that they are aware that they sell bad autographs.

If you sell a car to the neighborhood kid with the disclaimer "The brake lines might be ready to snap, and the gas tank will probably explode," the answer is your disclaimer will be used against you in a court of law.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by drc

Their disclaimer might actually make it worse for them legally, as it can be read as their acknowledgment that they are aware that they sell bad autographs.

If you sell a car to the neighborhood kid with the disclaimer "The brake lines might be ready to snap, and the gas tank will probably explode," the answer is your disclaimer will be used against you in a court of law.

Yes but with that disclaimer on the car you could probably get it for alot less money , Just don't drive in the mountains and don't buy more than a gallon of petro at a time and you've made out like a bandit.
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[drc]

They should issue autograph COAs that state "It's theoretically possible it's authentic." The fine print of COA assumes you watch a lot of Doctor Who.

[Exhibitman]

What a mess...

The old adage about not laying down with dogs to avoid getting fleas applies. You deal with "a breeding ground for fake signatures" and purchase an item that is turns out to be fake because you bought it sight unseen? Puh-leese...

A proper waiver or disclaimer is usually effective to eliminate liability for negligent conduct. Intentional acts like fraud are never proper subjects for pre-event waivers of liability. However, to prove fraud you would have to show that the seller knew it was a photocopy AND that you reasonably relied on a representation by the seller to the contrary. Since the seller states up front it is "Believed to be Not Authentic" you don't stand a snoball's chance in hell of convincing anyone you reasonably relied on anything the seller told you.

Stop doing business with thieves and you won't get burned.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

What a mess...

The old adage about not laying down with dogs to avoid getting fleas applies. You deal with "a breeding ground for fake signatures" and purchase an item that is turns out to be fake because you bought it sight unseen? Puh-leese...

A proper waiver or disclaimer is usually effective to eliminate liability for negligent conduct. Intentional acts like fraud are never proper subjects for pre-event waivers of liability. However, to prove fraud you would have to show that the seller knew it was a photocopy AND that you reasonably relied on a representation by the seller to the contrary. Since the seller states up front it is "Believed to be Not Authentic" you don't stand a snoball's chance in hell of convincing anyone you reasonably relied on anything the seller told you.

Stop doing business with thieves and you won't get burned.

+1 Thanks Adam. I wrote about 3 responses that essentially said the exact same thing but didn't post them as they didn't sound like yours .

The auction house said it wasn't good, you bought it. Now you want to go to law enforcement for not knowing or being defrauded? See Adams response and live and learn.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Leon

+1 Thanks Adam. I wrote about 3 responses that essentially said the exact same thing but didn't post them as they didn't sound like yours .

The auction house said it wasn't good, you bought it. Now you want to go to law enforcement for not knowing or being defrauded? See Adams response and live and learn.

The catch-22 of it all is that without injury, they will not act. That is the first thing they ask, "How were you affected?". When I tried to make it analogous to witnessing a (violent) crime, they basically shooed me away and said the injured party would need to make a report. Competently or not, Clutch became the injured party and now has standing. It still doesn't mean LE will do anything though....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Deertick

The catch-22 of it all is that without injury, they will not act. That is the first thing they ask, "How were you affected?". When I tried to make it analogous to witnessing a (violent) crime, they basically shooed me away and said the injured party would need to make a report. Competently or not, Clutch became the injured party and now has standing. It still doesn't mean LE will do anything though....

I can just see him trying to convince law enforcement to take a case when he was told he was buying garbage and then bought it. I think they probably have people who have actually been defrauded they should help more. If I were the law enforcement I would tell him not to buy things advertised as fake unless he wants a fake item. He received what was advertised. Just because other times he got real items that were advertised as garbage doesn't mean he was defrauded. In my eyes he has no standing.
(this isn't personal, Clutch is probably a great guy, we are only having a friendly debate)

[clutch]

Fantastic responses. Great information!!!

Let's change direction a little bit.

One of the guy's in the office told me that they know there are fakes out there and that is why they put the disclaimer in. They can't check everything. What do I want them to do?

How would you answer that question?

Keep in mind that this place is huge and they sell everything. Sports collectibles is probably a tiny fraction of their total sales. They may feel like it is not economically justifiable to employ an expert in that area.

Maybe they legitimately feel that the disclaimer is a step towards fighting it. I would think that any legitimate seller would never sell their stuff through a place that tells buyers they believe their stuff is fake.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by clutch

Maybe they legitimately feel that the disclaimer is a step towards fighting it. I would think that any legitimate seller would never sell their stuff through a place that tells buyers they believe their stuff is fake.

Bottom line: They know what they are doing, and you know what they are doing. No need to give them the benefit of any doubt, or candy-coat anything.

A legitimate, ethical business operator who receives a ton of complaints on one small portion of their business doesn't just add a disclaimer. They will either figure out a way to deal with the issues giving rise to the complaints, or shut down that small portion of their operation (i.e. stop taking autograph consignments). The only thing the disclaimer is attempting to fight is the deluge of buyer complaints.

If an operator is determined to cross that ethical line without any regard for the damage to his business and reputation, pointing a finger at them and saying "You should stop that!" is not going to have any effect.