Got burnt today

[Exhibitman]

What a mess...

The old adage about not laying down with dogs to avoid getting fleas applies. You deal with "a breeding ground for fake signatures" and purchase an item that is turns out to be fake because you bought it sight unseen? Puh-leese...

A proper waiver or disclaimer is usually effective to eliminate liability for negligent conduct. Intentional acts like fraud are never proper subjects for pre-event waivers of liability. However, to prove fraud you would have to show that the seller knew it was a photocopy AND that you reasonably relied on a representation by the seller to the contrary. Since the seller states up front it is "Believed to be Not Authentic" you don't stand a snoball's chance in hell of convincing anyone you reasonably relied on anything the seller told you.

Stop doing business with thieves and you won't get burned.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

What a mess...

The old adage about not laying down with dogs to avoid getting fleas applies. You deal with "a breeding ground for fake signatures" and purchase an item that is turns out to be fake because you bought it sight unseen? Puh-leese...

A proper waiver or disclaimer is usually effective to eliminate liability for negligent conduct. Intentional acts like fraud are never proper subjects for pre-event waivers of liability. However, to prove fraud you would have to show that the seller knew it was a photocopy AND that you reasonably relied on a representation by the seller to the contrary. Since the seller states up front it is "Believed to be Not Authentic" you don't stand a snoball's chance in hell of convincing anyone you reasonably relied on anything the seller told you.

Stop doing business with thieves and you won't get burned.

+1 Thanks Adam. I wrote about 3 responses that essentially said the exact same thing but didn't post them as they didn't sound like yours .

The auction house said it wasn't good, you bought it. Now you want to go to law enforcement for not knowing or being defrauded? See Adams response and live and learn.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Leon

+1 Thanks Adam. I wrote about 3 responses that essentially said the exact same thing but didn't post them as they didn't sound like yours .

The auction house said it wasn't good, you bought it. Now you want to go to law enforcement for not knowing or being defrauded? See Adams response and live and learn.

The catch-22 of it all is that without injury, they will not act. That is the first thing they ask, "How were you affected?". When I tried to make it analogous to witnessing a (violent) crime, they basically shooed me away and said the injured party would need to make a report. Competently or not, Clutch became the injured party and now has standing. It still doesn't mean LE will do anything though....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Deertick

The catch-22 of it all is that without injury, they will not act. That is the first thing they ask, "How were you affected?". When I tried to make it analogous to witnessing a (violent) crime, they basically shooed me away and said the injured party would need to make a report. Competently or not, Clutch became the injured party and now has standing. It still doesn't mean LE will do anything though....

I can just see him trying to convince law enforcement to take a case when he was told he was buying garbage and then bought it. I think they probably have people who have actually been defrauded they should help more. If I were the law enforcement I would tell him not to buy things advertised as fake unless he wants a fake item. He received what was advertised. Just because other times he got real items that were advertised as garbage doesn't mean he was defrauded. In my eyes he has no standing.
(this isn't personal, Clutch is probably a great guy, we are only having a friendly debate)

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think they probably have people who have actually been defrauded they should help more.

I think that is my point. They were standing all around him. But they didn't know they were defrauded, so.....

Try to look away from the fact that this situaion is like someone reporting that they bought fake coke. The guy who called may be an idiot, but it is still a crime to sell fake drugs.

This place is knowingly selling bad stuff. Don't we have an obligation to attempt to help the innocents from being defrauded? And to prevent the knowing from moving it on down the chain to the rube at the end?? (I think we've all been that guy at least once )

[isaac2004]

The OP originally saw a chance to make a quick buck by flipping material that "was not guaranteed to be authentic", and when he didn't have a chance to flip, he tried to get his money back. Now he comes on here whining about the fact that he lost an opportunity to rip someone off. If that is not the case, I must be misinterpreting this thread, because to me, the OP comes off just as bad as the group he bought the forged item from, because any reasonable collector would stay away from those red flags. It is one thing to be tricked by a bad description or vague anything, it is another to know the item is not real and buy it, then get mad when the people you bought it from won't refund you.

My two cents

[clutch]

Originally Posted by isaac2004

The OP originally saw a chance to make a quick buck by flipping material that "was not guaranteed to be authentic", and when he didn't have a chance to flip, he tried to get his money back. Now he comes on here whining about the fact that he lost an opportunity to rip someone off. If that is not the case, I must be misinterpreting this thread, because to me, the OP comes off just as bad as the group he bought the forged item from, because any reasonable collector would stay away from those red flags. It is one thing to be tricked by a bad description or vague anything, it is another to know the item is not real and buy it, then get mad when the people you bought it from won't refund you.

My two cents

This is so far off base that I don't even know where to begin. Maybe you should save your 2 cents and actually have a clue what you are talking about before you start flinging accusations.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Deertick

I think that is my point. They were standing all around him. But they didn't know they were defrauded, so.....

Try to look away from the fact that this situaion is like someone reporting that they bought fake coke. The guy who called may be an idiot, but it is still a crime to sell fake drugs.

This place is knowingly selling bad stuff. Don't we have an obligation to attempt to help the innocents from being defrauded? And to prevent the knowing from moving it on down the chain to the rube at the end?? (I think we've all been that guy at least once )

Jim- You are always a very good member and one I usually agree with. In this instance we are going to agree to disagree. I don't think the OP got defrauded. That is where we part ways on this issue.

edited to add......And I have been this guy more than once and have learned the hard way.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by Leon

Jim- You are always a very good member and one I usually agree with. In this instance we are going to agree to disagree. I don't think the OP got defrauded. That is where we part ways on this issue.

edited to add......And I have been this guy more than once and have learned the hard way.

Leon, we agree to agree. The OP played with fire, figured he'd get burned, and then got burnt. My issue is with the AH (that's Auction House ) that does this with impunity. I want to add some punity.

BTW, rational differences of opinions are educational and good for the soul. So thank you for aiding in my growth as a human being!