OT: Bonds, Clemens, Sosa to be on HOF ballot

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by z28jd

My opinion on it is if you don't put in Clemens, then close the Hall for the entire steroid era.

I assumed Clemens was the guy least deserving to go in. At least the others had HOF-like careers before PEDs. Clemens was 50-49 and going nowhere.

Ignore this post. I have stats mixed up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

I assumed Clemens was the guy least deserving to go in. At least the others had HOF-like careers before PEDs. Clemens was 50-49 and going nowhere.

Huh???
He had won three cy youngs by 1997

[egbeachley]

nevermind. I must have someone else's statistics mixed up. Need to add a correction to my other post.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

nevermind. I must have someone else's statistics mixed up. Need to add a correction to my other post.

i think what you are thinking of is that in his last four years before he was traded to toronto and allegedly started using, he was 50-49 but he was hugely successful before that

[steve B]

A bit of comment about a few points.

Ruth would be fine today. The "overweight" Ruth is partly body type, partly from the late career photos.
His huge count of triples compared to steals is from a couple things.
1) Huge ballparks. A drive to center in the polo grounds probably wasn't going out. (Although Ruth hit at least one out there around 460ft, out of any modern park)
2)He could actually run. Especially earlier.
3) Who would try stealing with Gherig at bat?
4) Stealing is more of a mental exercise than physical. Sure, speed helps a lot, but it all works off the pitchers time to the plate and how they watch the runner. I don't know how they played Ruth. If he was watched closely there may have been little opportunity to steal as well as reduced need.

Ruths pitching ability was also excellent.

And the argument that he wasn't facing ALL the best players could be countered by the one saying he also didn't face players from 15+ teams, only 8. figuring a modern 5 man rotation that's 40 pitchers who would be minor leaguers without expansion. More if you figure 1920's teams didn't have 5 man rotatons or closers or middle relievers. Of course the counter then is that modern players are often facing fresh pitchers instead of a guy throwing pitch number 257....Endless.

The other big sport of the 20's was 6-day bike racing. the top riders earned more than Ruth. 500-1000 a day, on top of the contract, plus prizes. Chicago was a favorite town since Capone was a huge fan and spent many nights giving out prizes for sprints every few laps $100 here, $500 there....

Bonds never tested positive. True. Maybe. I believe he stopped once the testing program began. It's also likely that the "cream" and "clear" were new stuff there wasn't a test for. Lance also "never tested positive" except for that one time he blamed the butt ointment, and that time he was let slide, and that other time Nike "took care of it"
Testing in Baseball began in 06, and Bonds had a very typical year lost to injury in 05. A very common thing for players stopping steroids.
So I'm not buying that part.

Sadly, I think if he'd stayed clean and been a bit nicer as a person he'd still have the career HR record, He just would have gotten it a couple years later. And may have stuck around a couple more.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

Sadly, I think if he'd stayed clean and been a bit nicer as a person he'd still have the career HR record, He just would have gotten it a couple years later. And may have stuck around a couple more.

Steve B

Steve, are just trying to placate the pro-Barry guys? Have you seen pictures of what he looked like in his pre-steroid days?

[sycks22]

Bonds are a great player before the 'roids, but he wasn't a future home run king. Before his 73 season he never hit 50. The fact that when most player's skills are fading if they're even still in ball at 37 years old Bonds somehow hits 73 is ridiculous. Bonds wasn't a team player, he didn't care about anyone except himself. I hope he never sniffs Cooperstown.

[71buc]

I am a weight lifter and have been or many years. Wherever there is weight lifting there are drugs. I never used steroids only because i could not afford them. I remember sitting in gyms talking about Incaviglia back when he came up pre-Canseco. I am not saying that Incaviglia was juicing. However, his arrival made it fairly obvious to those of us in that culture that serious weight lifting had arrived in baseball. We also knew that drugs were soon to follow just as night follows day. PEDs do not create ability they enhance it. Genetics cannot be improved upon. While on androgenics the journeyman becomes a steady player, the average player becomes a star, the superstar becomes a legend. I remember laughing when androstenedione was discovered in McGwire's locker. It is banned in other sports due to it being used as an masking agent. Athletes who used said indignantly, "I am not on steroids I'm on andro". In 2002 I went to a game with a close friend who was an area scout for a MLB team. I looked at A-Rod and said that he was using. My friend was shocked and a bit indignant at my statement. He defended Rodriguez saying he had an amazing work ethic. I said I am certain he does but he is using as men his age do not have that muscle density without pharmaceutical assistance. My friend refused to believe me. Seven years later the Selena Roberts article came out in SI and I was the first person my friend, then employed by the scouting bureau, called. Unfortunately that whole generation of players is suspect. It doesn't make them less it makes them different. They are a product of their time. Just as Ruth was the product of his. Despite playing pre integration, night baseball, and coast to coast travel, Ruth would have succeeded in any generation. The numbers would not be as gaudy but they still would have been there because of genetics. However, I suspect that if he played in the steroid era he would have joined the PED party. Those of us who care about the HOF know that this generation's stats are inflated by PEDs...so what. Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire's inclusion does not diminish the accomplishments of those already enshrined. What are we going to do deny an entire generation of players? If we do so then you might as well close the doors to the HOF because I will never go back. This issue really puts Hank Aaron's accomplishments in perspective. Those numbers are pre-steroid and post integration. I believe he is the greatest hitter of all time. Maddux's numbers are even more amazing considering his era. Thanks for indulging me while I pontificate.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Steve, are just trying to placate the pro-Barry guys? Have you seen pictures of what he looked like in his pre-steroid days?

Not at all. And I'm hardly a fan of Bonds.

But if you believe the 1999 start of steroids for him, he was a pretty consistent HR hitter, upper 30's lower 40's most years.

Then
2000 49
2001 73
2002 46
2003 45
2004 45
2005 5
2006 26
2007 28

That's 317 or almost exactly 40 a year

Figure the first three years he might have been close to that,
The next three maybe only mid-low 30's and the last two the same as he did.
The breakdown in 05 I'm almost positive was a "coming off steroids" injury.
That looks like
2000 41
2001 37
2002 39
2003 35
2004 32
2005 33
2006 26
2007 28
(The numbers aren't scientifically applied, just made up)
That's 271, only 46 short of where he actually got.

Although he was hitting pretty well for his age (And not bad for any age)at the end, he was dropped very quickly after he got the record. Mostly because of the juicing and his splendid personality. Think about it, a guy hitting .276 with 28 homers got precisely 0 interest as a free agent. Not even from an AL team that could hide him at DH

A nicer guy who was about 40 HR short of the all time record and hitting 26-28 a year would have had a bunch of interest even if it was only as a gate draw for a weak team. A couple years, a record, and a graceful retirement or final year back in Pittsburg and there it is.

Steve B

And - He maybe could have done it quicker, without the monster year with 73 he'd have seen a lot more good pitches.

[howard38]

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